Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[spiritofmusic]

It definitely is. Several of my friends still own some of previous century crazy expensive stacks, back then these would cost more then a decent sized house here in The Netherlands. Not so nowadays which may put some perspective on how expensive high end gear really is these days relative to real estate pricing. I remember when I got the Wadia 2000 stack, that is like 25-30 years ago. I had to delay buying a house for that. I greatly preferred it over the ML30/31 for midrange magic although the ML stack had killer bass extension. Switching transports/DACs was not successful though, with the Wadia you had to use a digimaster (I replaced that with a Genesis Digital Lens which did a bit better) to convert AES to ST fiber to be able to use the ML31 with it, so that was an obvious drawback. Combining the 2 was pretty poor though. I did prefer the Levinson 31 over the DCS transport (forgot the model name), even when using the Verona clock, with the DCS Elgar/Purcell which came out probably 10 years after (for bass again). I have a friend who is still using the large Metronome stack, I don't remember the model designations, it was their top offering around 10 years ago. Another one is still using the Wadia 7/9 which is a very successful pairing as well, still going strong bar resolution/clarity. Over the years we have swapped a lot of big stack transports / dacs but usually the same brand pairings worked best.

A big difference with server technology is the interface. These transport/dac stacks all use/used AES or a proprietary variation on that to transport I2S between them. It may come as no surprise that the AES or SPDIF output we can optionally fit into the Extreme sounds closer to a CD transport then USB or Ethernet. Generally speaking it can give you a somewhat softer / more laidback presentation. But USB or Ethernet are the interfaces of the future. On the DAC end these are not always very well executed, as strange as it may sound it's a different technology then Digital to Analogue conversion so it's often just fitted because manufacturers have to, but not always well implemented. Things are improving there though, one of the clearest examples of advancing technology being the MSB Pro USB module. XMOS has come a long way with 8,16,32 core USB receivers, split into 2 processing domains for the USB side and I2S side, Thesycon has developed a very advanced interface which is in the latest T+A 3000 series for example. https://www.thesycon.de/eng/u-hear.shtml .

Emile, no tech head me, but I wasn't expecting such a detailed summary of old previous cutting edge cd transports and dacs to be judged less favourably versus Extreme on the basis of connecting cables. There are/were plenty of great one-box models where this cable is not a consideration.

Are you really saying use of USB and Ethernet cables is THE critical consideration for why you view these old behemoths as by definition inferior?

I still find it telling that there is no news on the horizon for what me and at least a few others would find truly fascinating...a proper A/B of Extreme versus top top modern cd transport eg MSB Select, Wadax Atlantis, Esoteric, Neodio Origine, JMF 3.7.

If I have ANY reservations of a really well optimised SGM setup I'm very familiar with, it is lack of last degree of natural bloom and mids density. I can only go on aural memory, but the Audio Aero cdp the SGM replaced I would say had a certain degree of extra gravitas in mids, as does my Eera cdp, and of course vinyl.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've never tried the Roon DSP, but I do use the DSP on my speakers (Avantgarde). They allow 10 bands parametric eq at 500 hz and below. I have it set for the room and simply adjust the bass gain sometimes per recording where more or less bass is beneficial.

I tend to avoid bad recordings (of which, granted, there are many). But, I don't let it bother me anymore as there is so much great music available through streaming that I haven't begun to explore. My experience is that Jazz, of all genres, has the best overall recording quality. Classical is all over the place but it's not hard to find good recordings. Alternative, Americana, Rock, etc is pretty disappointing with a mine field of good music compromised by mediocre to terrible recordings.

@spiritofmusic, I'll have to listen to the first King Crimson again-- streamed-- and see if was ruined. I have good memories of it on vinyl, in a smoke-filled basement at age 13!

Wil, instead listen to King Crimson "Discipline", esp title track. Imho, a total disappointment via Tidal.

 

[onlychild]

Generally as in with the Extreme, comparing AES/EBU to USB/Ethernet, the results do vary from DAC to DAC of course.

Emile, what is the general consensus for DCS owners (particularly the Bartok/Rossini), AES or USB from the Extreme? Thx

 

[wil]

Wil, instead listen to King Crimson "Discipline", esp title track. Imho, a total disappointment via Tidal.

Wil, instead listen to King Crimson "Discipline", esp title track. Imho, a total disappointment via Tidal.

Listened to Elephant Talk and more on Qobuz. Great song and interesting album, but definitely suffers from some terrible digital harshies in guitar and vocals. What a shame. This is the tragedy of recorded music-- so many ways it gets screwed up. Interesting discussion a while back at PS Audio where Cookie Moreno of Blue Coast Record went into deep background music biz detail about all the processing that goes on that can go on to ruin the music. I don't see how there will ever be any tech bandaids for this.

 

[Blue58]

...........

If I have ANY reservations of a really well optimised SGM setup I'm very familiar with, it is lack of last degree of natural bloom and mids density. I can only go on aural memory, but the Audio Aero cdp the SGM replaced I would say had a certain degree of extra gravitas in mids, as does my Eera cdp, and of course vinyl.

I would consider the mid density an artefact to resemble an analogue warmth and render music ‘pretty’ rather than ‘natural’. Replacing the SR Blue fuses with Audio Magic beeswax would give you most of what you’re looking for and the rest from adjustments to the HQPlayer settings.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Barry, you're wrong. It's as simple as that Lol. That lack of mids density is as much an archetype as shrill toppy cd sound in the 80s was. But only by comparison to live music or good vinyl is one truly aware of it. Or it's not an issue for the individual listener.

But to say it's a colouration, or can be addressed by a "tone control" fuse is missing the point.

Caveat, IMHO it's just a tendency not wholesale absence for yr SGM to lack this mids palpability. I know you have any number of criticisms of (my) vinyl. But it is a comparison point to yr previous Audio Aero cdp, my Eera cdp, and vinyl. And the worse the streamer, the more marked is lack of mids body, bloom.

 

[Al M.]

Barry, you're wrong. It's as simple as that Lol. That lack of mids density is as much an archetype as shrill toppy cd sound in the 80s was. But only by comparison to live music or good vinyl is one truly aware of it. Or it's not an issue for the individual listener.

But to say it's a colouration, or can be addressed by a "tone control" fuse is missing the point.

Caveat, IMHO it's just a tendency not wholesale absence for yr SGM to lack this mids palpability. I know you have any number of criticisms of (my) vinyl. But it is a comparison point to yr previous Audio Aero cdp, my Eera cdp, and vinyl. And the worse the streamer, the more marked is lack of mids body, bloom.

Full midrange density can be both:
a) a virtue and closer similarity to the real thing, or to what's actually on the recording
b) a pleasant artefact, to render music 'pretty' rather than 'natural' (to use Barry's words)

So it depends.

 

[Taiko Audio]

The single dose of reality that you need is unamplified live music. Then you know how far your system is off the real thing.

However, this was not the point here, if you look at how this particular discussion started, with the claim that "generally speaking, AES/EBU is softer and more laid back".

I will try to write this more clearly: When you are using our Extreme server with the optional AES/EBU output fitted, then using that output into a DAC will generally sound a bit softer and more laid back then using USB or Ethernet into the same DAC.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, what is the general consensus for DCS owners (particularly the Bartok/Rossini), AES or USB from the Extreme? Thx

I do not get feedback from all of our customers, but from what I have received, they tend to prefer USB. It is close in performance, the difference being what I wrote in the post above, this is subtle, not mayor.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Would be interesting measured jitter on those 80km SFP with angled attenuator in line(5db)

I'm quite sure it will have lower jitter. Wheter you prefer that is up to personal taste

Moving to a different type of sound you could try the Finisar FTLX1472M3BTL, its a 1310nm 10km SFP+ (10Gb) module, it will work just fine at 1Gb.

From the datasheet:

Finisar’s FTLX1472M3BTL 10Gb/s Enhanced Small Form Factor Pluggable SFP+ transceivers are designed for use in links up to 10km over G.652 single mode fiber, and they are equipped with internal transmitter and receiver retimer units (Clock and Data Recover, or CDR) to comply to SONET/SDH jitter requirements and to enhance host cards’ high speed data-signal integrity.

This has a more precise type of sound, but also an inevitably thinner overall signature. I do like to use it on some situations but do generally keep reverting to the Startech 80km SFP modules.

 

[Taiko Audio]

@spiritofmusic , you are unlikely to get a lot of response to the CD versus Server discussion. It's a dead beat horse. It has been adressed several times in this thread, and hundreds, if not thousands of times in other threads forums. The Extreme has indeed been directly compared to a lot of CD transports. You can find comments like this for example, all out in the open on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/VOLENTaudio/photos/a.664070706974703/2549439631771125/?type=3&theater
You may also be able to find statements caiming the opposite, although I'm unaware of any Extreme owner selling their server so far.

I have a different perspective on it. In my personal opinion, High end and sound quality is not just about technology. It is a luxury market. It is about looks, build quality, component quality, vibration control and/or reducing equipment distortion, tuning and matching. I find the whole vinyl versus CD versus server debate a bit pointless. You can get great results nowadays from all of these. My approach is you start with the useability you desire and take it from there. Vinyl has something nice to it, collecting those prime cuts, go through the procedure involved with installing the media and subseqeuntly listening to it, CDs retain the collecting part but playing media is a less elaborate affair, with servers you have access to a vastly larger collection of music you would never be able to collect, instantly from your ipad. For people buying servers this is the main reason why. For all of these sources there are different levels of sound and build quality available at different price levels. There are also those in the luxury position to be able to aquire all of these at high quality levels, or at quality levels varying depending on what they feel is most important to them, or what they better connect to. It is a hobby afterall, you take the route(s) which excite you most, how you prefer spending your leisure time. There is no right or wrong here.

Hooking into the more interesting source first discussion debated in here over the Christmas period. I do agree with this approach, up till a certain point. What, again in my opinion, completely dominates the outcome is the true source, the recording, how it was made, how it was mastered and how it has been transferred to its final destination, the medium. There is no turntable, no CD transport, no server which can recover information lost in that process. We can deviate from "bit perfect" by applying processing, smart filters, EQ, introduce certain types of distortion etc. Perhaps analogue to applying sound signatures from cartridges, tonearms etc. But the mayority of people feel "bit perfect" to be a critical aspect for digital playback, as it should get you closer to how the recording sounds. But there's the culprit, how does that recording really sound. You are not listening to the actual performance, you are listening to the mix the mastering engineer felt it should sound like in his studio, often with a seal of approval of the artist, but still in quite a different environent then your home playback system. It is here where the true source first principle starts. Ironically, the better your system, the worse a specific master may turn out to sound in your environment.

 

[bonzo75]

"It has been adressed several times in this thread, and hundreds, if not thousands of times in other threads forums."

Was Marc part of many of these discussions?

 

[Taiko Audio]

"It has been adressed several times in this thread, and hundreds, if not thousands of times in other threads forums."

Was Marc part of many of these discussions?

I can see how that may have come across unsympethatic, It was my intention to convey the lack of interest in discussing this particular topic versus the other lively discussion Marc initiated.

 

[Kris]

I use this one at both ends of the fiber cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B1KH6DX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It works protecting the receivers from the high power tx on short lengths and small improvement in SQ in my system with neutral speakers.

So do you use 4 of them , 2 on each end of fibre ?

Or 2 of the, so just on the on the reciever side?

 

[bonzo75]

I can see how that may have come across unsympethatic, It was my intention to convey the lack of interest in discussing this particular topic versus the other lively discussion Marc initiated.

I was just joking I am sure he was, no sympathy from me

 

[spiritofmusic]

Emile, no argument from me, you've put yr case very cogently, absolutely nothing I can disagree on. My diversion onto how preeminent the server/USB cbl is in relation to the dac I thought was worth airing, mainly in response to MikeL's comments on just how accurate and revealing it is of digital files. I guess my comments on Tidal provenance and heirarchy of server/USB and dac are of limited interest and ultimately can't easily be answered/don't have an answer.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I was just joking I am sure he was, no sympathy from me

And a happy new year to you too, Ked.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, no argument from me, you've put yr case very cogently, absolutely nothing I can disagree on. My diversion onto how preeminent the server/USB cbl is in relation to the dac I thought was worth airing, mainly in response to MikeL's comments on just how accurate and revealing it is of digital files. I guess my comments on Tidal provenance and heirarchy of server/USB and dac are of limited interest and ultimately can't easily be answered/don't have an answer.

Mike does have a signifcant amount of high resolution music, more of that is becoming available on Tidal/Qobuz almost every day. I think it's reasonable to assume that this allows streaming to pull ahead of CD playback.

With that said, I listen to the top flight CD playback systems I mentioned earlier on a regular basis, and I do not feel these systems are lacking in anything with regards to musical enjoyment.

 

[microstrip]

Full midrange density can be both:
a) a virtue and closer similarity to the real thing, or to what's actually on the recording
b) a pleasant artefact, to render music 'pretty' rather than 'natural' (to use Barry's words)

So it depends.

Midrange density is another extremely subjective property, that ranges in indefiniteness with natural. Using the word natural to define it only increases the circle of confusion.

I have seen these words associated with the body of the midrange zone, also some people also use it to refer to a rich midrange. Most times we get the idea of the midrange density just from the bass or treble balance - IMHO it is why the the words can be easily misleading.

Sometimes these words can have a very useful meaning when associated to adjectives in a particular sentence, but IMHO they are not good sound descriptors.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But Francisco, that's what we're stuck with, language on an infinite Möbius Loop. I can imagine the cookery forums are similarly stuck in subjective Hell. I guess their advantage over us is they can all agree on what makes a great tasting steak Lol. For us, what makes a great midrange? I'd say start off with a pinch of density...