Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Blackmorec]

You mean Extreme just too good for Nu Roon, will not be able to not highlight it's deficiencies? Other streamers, poorer SQ "slips" thru, unnoticed?

Personally I would say that Roon has never delivered really good SQ vs some other SW and required Emile’s considerable set up and engineering skills to bring it to the level it achieved with the Extreme. But as Roon overhead and features have increased, without regard to SQ, the challenge to preserve the previously achieved SQ levels gradually becomes overwhelming, even for the most carefully configured and refined hardware architecture.

When I listen to music, I sit down, hit the standby button, select ‘My Music‘ or ‘My Apps/Favorites‘ on my iPad, click an album cover, close the iPad and my eyes and become completely immersed in and swept away by the music. For that experience Roon offers very little value, so I’ve never been willing to sacrifice the SQ or pay the necessary extra to compensate.

IMO, an Audio SW Development Engineers’ quality process must always include a careful listening evaluation to ensure that future revisions enhance sound quality. For me a product that sounds worse with time is not something I’m in the least interested in, as it makes future dissatisfaction a certainty.

 

[vjayh]

As one of the previous comments said, I'm hoping there's a way with future updates to the Extreme to maintain the Roon functionality, and somehow have the better sound quality. I too am about the absolute best sound, but Roon was a big draw for me in order to simplify the rest of my system around one software. Specifically, I use the Extreme in my main system as a "no holds barred" audio source, with tweaked out clean network bells and whistles, but I also use the Roon core of the Extreme to feed other systems like whole house audio and secondary Roon systems. I won't go back to having to maintain multiple softwares, multiple storage locations, etc. I had tried most of the other mainstream "audiophile" softwares and there's just no comparison to Roon's metadata and other features like Radio, etc. Way too much time spent tweaking Upnp software, getting it to work on various system, flipping between software controllers, "this renderer will work with this software, but not that one" etc, etc. I just want to sit down and listen to music, not sit down and spend 30 minutes updating systems before I can listen. When I add a new file, I just want the software (Roon) to see it and catalog it properly and instantly without a lot of user interaction. Roon does this better than any I've used, and particularly on systems that were designed to work with it.

Anyway, just hoping that Roon + Extreme doesn't get abandoned and that we can "have our cake and eat it too" marrying Roon with a better sounding player if Roon can't be tweaked/ salvaged, but maintain the Roon functionality. Lastly, I echo the comments that Emile/ Taiko customer service is some of the best I've ever encountered. Honestly don't know how he does it to stay personally involved, accessible, and pushing the envelope on development, and providing great service. Must never sleep!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Interesting dilemma. Would the Roon metadata junkies out there who absolutely rave about Roon's ability to find new music, really be prepared to put it aside for Emile Server if this SQ uptick proves to be consistent, but Emile Server doesn't hit the organisational acumen of Roon?

 

[wil]

I commented to Emile about delay time to begin play. It was just slightly slower but only by a fraction of a second.


Turns out there is a reason for what I experienced. There is actually an intentional delay, as the track loads into memory before playing

hence it does not use the disk or network while playing.
All good I’d say

Steve, If you play an entire album, is there only a brief delay at the start and the rest plays seamlessly from memory?

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, If you play an entire album, is there only a brief delay at the start and the rest plays seamlessly from memory?

yes. The delay is barely noticeable

 

[onlychild]

There is so much to Roon that is very hard for me to give up. One example is when playing an album and noticing on the lower right side that there is a new album by that artist is irreplaceable. My only other alternative is to constantly check for new albums by all the different artists I listen to, and that is something I do not have the time or patience for.

Another great feature for me is being able to click on an artist and see all the albums (old and new) by that artist, both in my personal library and everything in Tidal without duplicating the albums between the two.

Again, for me, the "music discovery" features of Roon are second to none, and after all, finding new music is one of the greatest joys in this hobby. I have yet to find a simpler and more enjoyable way of finding new music.

Since the TAS is still in its infancy, I am hoping Emile finds a way to be able to use Roon as a front end system only, with the actual processing and playing of the track done by TAS, kind of like HQPlayer (?).

FYI, I am using HQPlayer with Roon sending 1M taps to my Chord Dave and am very happy with the result.

 

[howiebrou]

You mean Extreme just too good for Nu Roon, will not be able to not highlight it's deficiencies? Other streamers, poorer SQ "slips" thru, unnoticed?

All I mean is if the streamer is not a good performer and has not been maximizing the sound of roon anyway then may be a degradation in sound from roon will not be as noticeable. Just like putting Pirelli P Zeros on a reasonably priced car might not make any difference...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure, it's just that there has been zero input from owners of Innuos Zenith and Statement, LDMS, Lumin, Pink Faun, Antipodes, Evo, Grimm, that they're unhappy w reported Roon shortcomings as a result of changes. Only Extreme owners. And now, only Extreme owners have the luxury of a solution from Emile.

 

[wil]

Turns out there is a reason for what I experienced. There is actually an intentional delay, as the track loads into memory before playing
hence it does not use the disk or network while playing.
All good I’d say

So, if the network streamed music is going to memory (RAM?) before being rendered and sent to the dac, does it mean that all the network related noise is bypassed? Or, will you always have some negative influence from the network as long as you are connected to it?

 

[Rhapsody]

Sure, it's just that there has been zero input from owners of Innuos Zenith and Statement, LDMS, Lumin, Pink Faun, Antipodes, Evo, Grimm, that they're unhappy w reported Roon shortcomings as a result of changes. Only Extreme owners. And now, only Extreme owners have the luxury of a solution from Emile.

Marc,

This is an Extreme thread, not really the place for people to place posts about the other streamers and their Roon experience. There are threads on forums regarding other streamers, probably best to research your question in those threads. Don't ya think?

 

[Steve williams]

Marc,

This is an Extreme thread, not really the place for people to place posts about the other streamers and their Roon experience. There are threads on forums regarding other streamers, probably best to research your question in those threads. Don't ya think?

totally agree

 

[Blackmorec]

Sure, it's just that there has been zero input from owners of Innuos Zenith and Statement, LDMS, Lumin, Pink Faun, Antipodes, Evo, Grimm, that they're unhappy w reported Roon shortcomings as a result of changes. Only Extreme owners. And now, only Extreme owners have the luxury of a solution from Emile.

Most Innuos Zenith and Statement users that i correspond with either listen using InnuOS direct or via Roon + SqueezLite player, both of which are substantial improvements over the Roon player. In my experience the difference isn’t subtle. In addition, InnuOS has seen 2 revisions since the Statement’s release, both with improved SQ, so I’d guess that most Innuos users have never been exposed to the Roon player revision downgrades.

Given the care and effort that has gone into the Extreme, I would imagine that there’s still room for further improvement with an alternate player. The combination of Roon with a Taiko engineered player would be highly appealing as it would put Emile fully in the driver’s seat as regards the SQ of all future revisions.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I was actial

Marc,

This is an Extreme thread, not really the place for people to place posts about the other streamers and their Roon experience. There are threads on forums regarding other streamers, probably best to research your question in those threads. Don't ya think?

My post was actually complimenting Emile and the Extreme, since only Extreme users have picked up on this, because of higher resolution to start, and Emile has solved it.

 

[wil]

I do think Marc brings up a good question. It would be interesting to know the effect new Roon versions have on other Server/Streamers in contrast to the Extreme. Maybe Marc can do some digging and report back here if deemed appropriate?

Btw, I've (fortunately) never heard the Roon versions which reportedly brought sq down. If I can help it, I never update any kind of software or OS until I hear the bugs have been worked out.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Will, count me out Lol.

 

[EuroDriver]

Eurodriver, do you know if Taiko Server supports UPnP / OpenHome ?. If so, it would allow choosing the control point. Although I no longer have Lumin, I still use its control software, which for me is more than enough.

The philosophy is to try to keep this alternative software ecosystem as simple as possible. Every additional service and functionality means more polling is going on. So no UPnP, and OpenHome compatibly is on the Road Map.

However, we never say never, and if there were to be a killer OpenHome or UPnP . . . .

 

[Blackmorec]

So, if the network streamed music is going to memory (RAM?) before being rendered and sent to the dac, does it mean that all the network related noise is bypassed? Or, will you always have some negative influence from the network as long as you are connected to it?

I use both local and remote streaming, both of which are played from RAM. Over the past couple of years I have spent considerable time and effort upgrading my network, with some fairly major improvements along the way. When I started, local streaming was a tick better than remote using the same material, although the differences were quite minor compared to the sometimes major differences between recordings.
You would imagine that with all the improvements made to remote streaming, it would now be substantially better than locally stored files, which have not seen anything like the same improvements to the ‘data stream’, but locally stored files are still a tick better. My conclusion is that a lot of the network noise has an impact on whatever its connected to, given that its removal has a very positive impact on locally stored files played from RAM .

 

[EuroDriver]

@EuroDriver

Hi Ed,

great news

How is streaming from Qobuz with TAS?

Thanks

Matt

Qobuz works well. Search is perhaps a bit clunky, but once I was used to it, I could find everything quickly. I am comparably happy with Qobuz search on the Taiko Audio Server, as I am on Roon

 

[EuroDriver]

As one of the previous comments said, I'm hoping there's a way with future updates to the Extreme to maintain the Roon functionality, and somehow have the better sound quality. I too am about the absolute best sound, but Roon was a big draw for me in order to simplify the rest of my system around one software. Specifically, I use the Extreme in my main system as a "no holds barred" audio source, with tweaked out clean network bells and whistles, but I also use the Roon core of the Extreme to feed other systems like whole house audio and secondary Roon systems. I won't go back to having to maintain multiple softwares, multiple storage locations, etc. I had tried most of the other mainstream "audiophile" softwares and there's just no comparison to Roon's metadata and other features like Radio, etc. Way too much time spent tweaking Upnp software, getting it to work on various system, flipping between software controllers, "this renderer will work with this software, but not that one" etc, etc. I just want to sit down and listen to music, not sit down and spend 30 minutes updating systems before I can listen. When I add a new file, I just want the software (Roon) to see it and catalog it properly and instantly without a lot of user interaction. Roon does this better than any I've used, and particularly on systems that were designed to work with it.

Anyway, just hoping that Roon + Extreme doesn't get abandoned and that we can "have our cake and eat it too" marrying Roon with a better sounding player if Roon can't be tweaked/ salvaged, but maintain the Roon functionality. Lastly, I echo the comments that Emile/ Taiko customer service is some of the best I've ever encountered. Honestly don't know how he does it to stay personally involved, accessible, and pushing the envelope on development, and providing great service. Must never sleep!

We absolutely get this. We think that a large if not the largest segment of the Extreme Owner community will want the best sounding Roon Platform, and Taiko is absolutely committed to pushing on this front too. Switching back and forth will be made as easy as possible via the App, so Owners can have their cake and eat it too

 

[matthias]

Qobuz works well. Search is perhaps a bit clunky, but once I was used to it, I could find everything quickly. I am comparably happy with Qobuz search on the Taiko Audio Server, as I am on Roon

Does TAS use Qobuz Application Programming Interface (API), afaik Roon does not.
Thanks

Matt