I switched from fiber to Tweaked LAN input a few days ago. I had been using the fiber input since day one, only changing out the SFP modules. The difference is striking. I wish there was a bit more focus on the LAN input but I sure don't miss the glare and edginess that is gone now. Perhaps UTP cables will make a difference which I intend to try......
I wonder if removeing the fiber card in my Extreme is recommended?
I assume you also considered building a ethernet card (since you think of everything!). Is that something that could happen at some point (instead of a switch)?
Yes, I actually started with that before moving to designing a switch realising at that time that an ethernet card would not solve people’s preferences for using less or more switches and/or preferring different models. However as it turned out there’s more to it than meets the ear. I am confident we’re homing in on the root causes (there are more then one).
One discovery has been the network cable shield as a serious contributor hence the recommendation to try an unshielded one. You still may end up preffering fiber, it does have a tighter and brighter sound, largely influenced by the SFP modules used and fiber cable length, if you feel like experimenting you can safely try a 300ft or even longer fiber cable.
Right now my personal preference though is an unshielded cat5 cable, and I use a pretty long one, over 100ft. Not claiming you can’t do better, but it just does nothing wrong.
As you can imagine I prefer spending my time designing hence I don’t intend to spend too much time testing a plethora of possible configurations again with this new knowledge gained.
I switched from fiber to Tweaked LAN input a few days ago. I had been using the fiber input since day one, only changing out the SFP modules. The difference is striking. I wish there was a bit more focus on the LAN input but I sure don't miss the glare and edginess that is gone now. Perhaps UTP cables will make a difference which I intend to try......
I wonder if removeing the fiber card in my Extreme is recommended?
Removing the SFP card isn’t necessary, it’s largely powered down when not used. What could be beneficial is pulling the SFP module though, don’t do that when the system is powered up, they should be hot-pluggable but I did manage to kill a few that way.
Oh, never mind. Now that I've had my first cup of coffee I realized I can go into my Extreme, check the Windows "Settings" and find out which ethernet connection is "Tweaked" (#2 in my case).
I opened VNC and browsed around but couldn't find out which ethernet port is tweaked. How did you do that?
I'm running 15m of fiber to an ER then copper to the Extreme. Does that classify me as fiber or copper?
I opened VNC and browsed around but couldn't find out which ethernet port is tweaked. How did you do that?
I'm running 15m of fiber to an ER then copper to the Extreme. Does that classify me as fiber or copper?
On the Windows desktop, click on the lower left corner Windows icon to display the Windows menu. Click on "Windows System" > click on "This PC" > click on the "Open Settings" icon (gear symbol) in the window that opened > click on "Network & Internet" (top right) > click on Ethernet in the list of items on the left side.
In this window on the right panel you will see a list of ethernet inputs. Mine is, from top to bottom -- Standard Ethernet (not connected), Tweaked Ethernet (not connected), and Network 3 (connected). Network 3 is my current fiber input to the Extreme. An SFP is active in the Extreme's SFP cage and my fiber goes directly to it.
There are no doubt other ways to get to Settings and Network & Internet, but as a 90% Macintosh user/10% Windows user, this is the way I know for sure.
As for whether you are fiber or copper, since the last leg of your connection is copper your list of network connections will show one of the two (copper) ethernet connection active.
I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Emile suggests that lengths of the cables also play a role in the sound (as opposed to just the last foot or so) so when one has 15 meters of fiber into an ER and then (perhaps a short length of) copper ethernet to the Extreme, are all effects from the fiber eliminated?
I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Emile suggests that lengths of the cables also play a role in the sound (as opposed to just the last foot or so) so when one has 15 meters of fiber into an ER and then (perhaps a short length of) copper ethernet to the Extreme, are all effects from the fiber eliminated?
In my case the 15m of fiber is sharing a 1 inch conduit with an unshielded cat 5 cable that bypasses the ER and goes to another switch which runs my desktop, printer, etc.. I would think I would have some problems with two cat 5 cables in that conduit if I got rid of the fiber. Both the cat 5 cable that feeds another ER where the fiber originates and the cat 5 that feeds the Extreme are unshielded.
In my case the 15m of fiber is sharing a 1 inch conduit with an unshielded cat 5 cable that bypasses the ER and goes to another switch which runs my desktop, printer, etc.. I would think I would have some problems with two cat 5 cables in that conduit if I got rid of the fiber. Both the cat 5 cable that feeds another ER where the fiber originates and the cat 5 that feeds the Extreme are unshielded.
I don't know what would technically constitute a threshold for one versus the other (shielded vs.unshielded), in terms of number of cables per unit of space, but my understanding is one of the purposes of Cat6a is to protect against external or "alien cross-talk."
Clearly, those specs were developed for data-centers where many cables are run in "trays" and for longer distances. No one was considering how the data sounded. That is our malaise!
Removing the SFP card isn’t necessary, it’s largely powered down when not used. What could be beneficial is pulling the SFP module though, don’t do that when the system is powered up, they should be hot-pluggable but I did manage to kill a few that way.
UTP = Unshielded Twisted Pair. The twisted pair configuration actually shields, well, actually rejects or cancels common mode interference. Any interference is presented to both conductors but equally and oppositely. Hence “common” to both conductors in each pair.
I wouldn’t run signal leads and power leads close together in the same conduit but signal level leads are not a problem. In a previous professional life part of my responsibilities were for quality assurance and inspection of electrical and electronic installations on US Navy vessels. Applicable MIL-STD (military standards) documents are specific regarding separation of high-level and low-level cables. However, runs of low-level signal cables are allowed in the same conduit or cable tray. In practice, even with very long parallel runs of signal cabling in close proximity we did not observe unacceptable coupling or interference, whether analog or digital.
UTP = Unshielded Twisted Pair. The twisted pair configuration actually shields, well, actually rejects or cancels common mode interference. Any interference is presented to both conductors but equally and oppositely. Hence “common” to both conductors in each pair.
I wouldn’t run signal leads and power leads close together in the same conduit but signal level leads are not a problem. In a previous professional life part of my responsibilities were for quality assurance and inspection of electrical and electronic installations on US Navy vessels. Applicable MIL-STD (military standards) documents are specific regarding separation of high-level and low-level cables. However, runs of low-level signal cables are allowed in the same conduit or cable tray. In practice, even with very long parallel runs of signal cabling in close proximity we did not observe unacceptable coupling or interference, whether analog or digital.
Yesterday was my wife's birthday but she let me, in her words, "play with the stereo" for an hour or so which was very nice of her. I did after all cook dinner and waited on her hand and foot all day!
Interesting experience switching back to copper ethernet after having listened to music for over a year via fiber. I need to listen more but so far I like what I heard last night. I was expecting something rather subtle but what I heard was quite easy to differentiate. I hear more body and weight and more 3-dimensionality with the copper connection. And with the body I think I also hear a bit more subtle detail and texture to instrumental sounds and voices. I haven't detected much if any loss of dynamics, leading edge or HF information relative to fiber.
Now, fiber didn't sound thin or lack weight before but it could sound a tad bit too energetic at times and less favored recorded material that have a tendency toward edginess with fiber sound more relaxed while not being slowed down or softened via copper ethernet.
These differences hold true whether listening to local content stored on the Extreme or streamed from Qobuz or Tidal, perhaps being a bit more pronounced when comparing streamed music.
I did run into one self-generated temporary frustration when doing the change to copper. It took me a few tries before realizing that I had to first click on the TAS player icon to discover all Extremes on my network after making the switch from fiber to copper ethernet. I thought I had reserved a static IP address for the Extreme in my modem/router but evidently I had not. So after the swap the address had changed and the TAS player needed to re-discover my Extreme before it would play.
I do note something interesting that I can't explain. I wrote in an earlier post that looking at ethernet settings in Windows with fiber connected, my three interfaces were:
"In this window on the right panel you will see a list of ethernet inputs. Mine are, from top to bottom -- Standard Ethernet (not connected), Tweaked Ethernet (not connected), and Network 3 (connected). Network 3 is my current fiber input to the Extreme. An SFP is active in the Extreme's SFP cage and my fiber goes directly to it."
Looking at ethernet settings now with a copper ethernet cable plugged into the port labeled "LAN 2" on the back of the Extreme, they show the same as before -- that is, Standard Ethernet and Tweaked Ethernet still show "not connected" and Network 3 continues to show "connected", but with the new IP address. I've restarted the Extreme since making the switch to copper ethernet, but Windows doesn't show anything other than my connection IP address changed.
Any ideas? Later today I'll pull the SFP and see if that makes a difference. I would like to verify that I actually have my copper cable plugged into the "Tweaked Ethernet" port, though it certainly sounds lovely at present.
I reserve the right to change my mind after more listening, but for now going back to copper ethernet is the favorite here at Rancho De Luxe.
