Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Zeotrope]

Thank you for finding and sharing that!

When I did my previous upgrade of power supplies for my Router and Satellites - replacing stock wall-wart with IFi low-noise warts with ANC that did indeed provide a noticeable upgrade in SQ.

Since that upgrade I have made significant other changes, including adding the Extreme (which replaced my Nucleus) and various other improvements -> a very much lowered noise floor.

Replacing IFI with first Keeces P3 LPS and then with Ferrum Hypsos and also including the first link in my audio processing pipeline - the fibre converter provided by my service provider was much bigger upgrade than earlier upgrades. If the fibre converter adds noise - it will be present in all downstream components in the pipeline, even with excellent components (like Extreme) you cannot make that noise completely go away (filters are just filters).

Optimize the whole is the only principle that works.

Last night I connected my Eero WiFi Satellite, which was sharing an outlet with the Extreme, into a Shunyata Denali. I couldn’t believe the improvement! Keep in mind that the Extreme is still connected to the wall - only the Eero is connected to the Denali.
The Denali must be preventing noise from the Eero from travelling back out to the line, and into the Extreme.
All the normal superlatives applied: more clarity, more 3-dimensionality, more ‘musicality‘ and slightly less background noise.

Conclusion: if you can’t keep the Extreme on a dedicated circuit, isolate it from other components with a power conditioner that has this function.

 

[Ultrafast69]

@romaz and @Ultrafast69, could you share your experience in terms of using the Extreme with the Stromtank (please specifiy model) vs directly? Thanks

Hi. With the Extreme, I never had reason not to give it its own circuit which allows it to prevail. I am a fan of StromTank, and use this on the Phonos.

 

[Kris]

Last night I connected my Eero WiFi Satellite, which was sharing an outlet with the Extreme, into a Shunyata Denali. I couldn’t believe the improvement! Keep in mind that the Extreme is still connected to the wall - only the Eero is connected to the Denali.
The Denali must be preventing noise from the Eero from travelling back out to the line, and into the Extreme.
All the normal superlatives applied: more clarity, more 3-dimensionality, more ‘musicality‘ and slightly less background noise.

Conclusion: if you can’t keep the Extreme on a dedicated circuit, isolate it from other components with a power conditioner that has this function.

this is the noise that goes both ways.
extreme to the other eqipement is one thing
other thing is what I mentioned 5 times here already. Wifi is a very big source of noise.
especially 5 ghz.
I use no wifi at all and use everything wired With ethernet cables.
each time I connected wifi back I could not listen to my system anymore.

 

[Taiko Audio]

this is the noise that goes both ways.
extreme to the other eqipement is one thing
other thing is what I mentioned 5 times here already. Wifi is a very big source of noise.
especially 5 ghz.
I use no wifi at all and use everything wired With ethernet cables.
each time I connected wifi back I could not listen to my system anymore.

Hi Kris,

Dropped you an e-mail.

 

[Zeotrope]

this is the noise that goes both ways.
extreme to the other eqipement is one thing
other thing is what I mentioned 5 times here already. Wifi is a very big source of noise.
especially 5 ghz.
I use no wifi at all and use everything wired With ethernet cables.
each time I connected wifi back I could not listen to my system anymore.

When you say you use no Wifi at all, you mean there is no WiFi signal in your house?

I listened with my router disconnected from power and could hear no difference in sound. When I replaced the generic Ethernet cable with a Triode Labs cable there was a noticeable improvement in sound, and this is without streaming.

So in my setup adding the Eero 6E router near the Extreme did not degrade the sound at all - not from the WiFi signal anyway; but the Eero’s power supply does need to be isolated from the Extreme (which I achieved with a Shunyata Denali).

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Wifi is a very big source of noise.
especially 5 ghz.
I use no wifi at all and use everything wired With ethernet cables.

Hi @Kris. I recall you have advocated NOT using wifi for a while now. I looked at the adapter/converter pieces to run the TAS "control" tablet wired instead of using wifi, but decided against it.

As I recall, you don't stream, which makes eliminating wifi a bit more practical. Do I recall that correctly?

I'm not opposed to the bother, but I can see so many other wifi signals on that tablet, that I thought it might not be worth the trouble, as the wifi soup is everywhere. I felt I would have to put the front end in a Faraday cage. My wife is a scientist, but I'm not sure that would fly (although I have actually looked into sourcing copper mesh to build a cage, in the interest of science, of course).

So boiled down: Is the wifi I use for the control tablet audio system worse than the general wifi beaming around?

 

[Zeotrope]

The best way to check is to start playing a track from the Extreme’s HD and turn off all sources of Wi-Fi. I did that and detected no difference, at least in my setup.

Because the Extreme’s case is so well (over-)engineered, my guess is that if you do observe an improvement in sound quality with Wi-Fi off, it’s due to the power supply of the router/satellite and the Ethernet cable, not the Wi-Fi signal itself.

Even with a linear power supply, you need to ensure noise isn’t leaving the supply and into other components on the same circuit.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...yes. Here, all network infrastructure is on LPS power, is a floor above the audio system, and on a dedicated circuit, on the opposite phase from audio for good measure.

 

[Taiko Audio]

It is interesting, I have zero doubts Kris is having these results. Worthy of further investigation. Here I have no significant influence of 5G Wi-Fi, there is a minor difference between running the remote wired versus wireless, aswell as a minor difference between Android and Apple tablets. But completely disabling wireless is inaudible here. Since we added more access points to have a strong signal everywhere in the building (no retransmits), 5G outperforms 2.4G which did better before but apparently due to its longer range causing less retransmits with a worse access point coverage.

 

[DW101]

...yes. Here, all network infrastructure is on LPS power, is a floor above the audio system, and on a dedicated circuit, on the opposite phase from audio for good measure.

I realise everyone's set up is different, but FWIW, I also have LPS powering all my networking gear and I have found I need to defend against my own WiFi - I make sure all my cables (power and ethernet) are shielded (additional metal braided outer overing on the Cat 8), and - funny you should mention it - have jury rigged Faraday cages around the equipment nearest to the WiFi (router and network switch). It helped :/

 

[Nils]

Last night I connected my Eero WiFi Satellite, which was sharing an outlet with the Extreme, into a Shunyata Denali. I couldn’t believe the improvement! Keep in mind that the Extreme is still connected to the wall - only the Eero is connected to the Denali.
The Denali must be preventing noise from the Eero from travelling back out to the line, and into the Extreme.
All the normal superlatives applied: more clarity, more 3-dimensionality, more ‘musicality‘ and slightly less background noise.

Conclusion: if you can’t keep the Extreme on a dedicated circuit, isolate it from other components with a power conditioner that has this function.

That is same experience that I had when I moved my Ferrum Hypsos from wall-outlet -> Shunyata Everest,
Shunyata power distributors ensure isolation between the units plugged in as well as cleaning the power.

I also noted that after moving the Ferrum Hypsos to Everest - sound quality also improved when playing locally stored music (I have a few DSD256 albums stored on the Extreme) - this would indicate that some degree of noise leaked from Ferrum Hypsos plugged into wall outlet to Everest which always was plugged into Everest.

Live and learn...

 

[MarkusBarkus]

have jury rigged Faraday cages around the equipment nearest to the WiFi (router and network switch).

...my mind has gone there too. May I ask what did you use for the cages? Copper mesh looked to have potential to me, providing shielding and air flow. For mission-critical applications, they use gasket, grommets, etc. to completely block radiation, but that never looks reasonable to do.

Does anyone know: if there are gaps in a Faraday shield, does it concentrate energy? Must a cage be 100% "sealed" or can we take what we can reasonably get without extraordinary methods.

 

[oldmustang]

...my mind has gone there too. May I ask what did you use for the cages? Copper mesh looked to have potential to me, providing shielding and air flow. For mission-critical applications, they use gasket, grommets, etc. to completely block radiation, but that never looks reasonable to do.

Does anyone know: if there are gaps in a Faraday shield, does it concentrate energy? Must a cage be 100% "sealed" or can we take what we can reasonably get without extraordinary methods.

As a rule of thumb the hole size should be 1/2 or less of the wavelength of the impinging radiation. I leave the math to you.

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

OK, it's actually a little more complicated than my off the cuff "rule of thumb" above.

To determine the attenuation of a particular frequency:

S=20loglambda/2 l

where S is the signal attenuation in dB, lambda is the wavelength of the signal, and l is the length of the largest dimension for non-circular holes.

However, it is more complicated than that in the real world, and the material used for shielding as well as its thickness also must be taken into account.

A very quick way to ascertain of a Faraday cage is worth the effort would be to wrap the device under test in several layers of aluminum foil for non-conductive cased devices, or to lay several sheets of aluminum foil over and under any vent holes for metallic cased devices. It should go without saying that this will impede cooling, so this method if proved effective in raising sound quality, is not a permanent fix. But it should give an idea if it is worth the bother of pursuing a Faraday cage further.

Two real world examples of where Faraday cages have been effective and indeed necessary --

FM radio station WFMT screened their facility with fine copper mesh screening in all walls, floor and ceiling to avoid electromagnetic and radio frequency interference from the multitude of cell phone, police and emergency services antennas above and around their facility in Chicago. They literally created a Faraday room.

Onboard wooden hulled minesweepers of the US Navy, compartments containing susceptible electronic equipment are likewise screened on all sides -- deck, bulkheads and overhead -- again to attenuate the electromagnetic and radio frequency inference from radar, 1000 watt HF transmitters, and the myriad of VHF and UHF transmitters and antenna in close proximity.

Prior to the installation of screening transmitting at full power on the HF radios would cause severe interference in other systems and in fact was enough to overwhelm circuits operating at + and - 5 VDC in nearby spaces. Keying the HF transmitter would actually cause the minehunting sonar winch to start operating on its own if it was energized at the time.

After the copper mesh screening was installed the interference was markedly attenuated and there were no more phantom operations of the sonar winch.

Steve Z

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Nice post @oldmustang! I was worried when you left me with a calculator challenge unchaperoned. I've got to consider how to isolate my minesweeper.

 

[romaz]

As a rule of thumb the hole size should be 1/2 or less of the wavelength of the impinging radiation. I leave the math to you.

Steve Z

Per the Taiko Audio website, the Extreme has 6000 machined holes in it that function as waveguides. These holes have been drilled both on the top lid but also the bottom plate of the Extreme.



These waveguides, according to Emile, function to shield EMI emissions (from both entering and leaving) by "81dB which is around 10,000 times."



It's possible your wifi's EMI is impacting your DAC but it's probably minimally impacting your Extreme. For those wishing to explore Faraday-type enclosures for their DAC or other components, these types of devices do already exist in the market (although I have no personal experience).




Personally, I don't see myself going to these extremes.

 

[romaz]

The best way to check is to start playing a track from the Extreme’s HD and turn off all sources of Wi-Fi. I did that and detected no difference, at least in my setup.

I've performed this test myself several times. Even blind tested. I couldn't tell a difference either but I know some people are extra sensitive to wifi frequencies.

But I'm convinced ambient RF in the room impacts sound. Say what you will about Ted Denney and Synergistic Research but I own one of his Atmosphere XL4 multiwave RF field generators:


I have one of these hidden in a closet in my listening room and they reportedly emit specific frequencies into the air that shape the sound characteristics of your listening room (for the better but potentially also for the worse). The point is you can tune or shape the RF in the air where it works for you. I was a skeptic but even with the device hidden in my closet, this thing works. If you're especially bothered by airborne RF, you might want to give one of these a try. Here in the U.S., they come with a money back guarantee.

 

[MRJAZZ]

I find Shakti EMI/RFI devices to be very effective. I use them thru out my system.....YMMV....

CHEERS....

 

[romaz]

Since it looks like I've become a shameless shill for Synergistic Research, I'll go on to say that I use one of their Tranquility Bases under my Extreme:



Like the Atmosphere XL4, this base also supposedly emits waves into the air directly above it. I don't think it's designed to eliminate RF but rather shapes it. Despite all of the Extreme's waveguides, the Tranquility Base has the capability to change the Extreme's sonic presentation. Change is not always favorable but in the case of my Extreme, I prefer what it does. Combined with a quad of CS2 1.5 footers, it does a commendable job of mechanical grounding also.

 

[romaz]

Is there such thing as good EMI? It's all relative but my answer is yes. Sometimes, we like the sound of distortion and then there's some EMI that's just plain bad. I've experimented with various devices like the Shakti Air (although I have no personal experience with the Shakti Air). I tried a few of these Bybee devices in various servers including the Extreme. They work most effectively when placed inside of the chassis:



My experience? Ughh, just horrible. Made transients sound soft. Same thing with the Audio Magic CE Generators:



These things definitely work but in my case, not for the better and so like everything else, YMMV.