Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Taiko Audio]

@Taiko: can you shed any light on the flac vs. wav issue?

wav is uncompressed, flac tends to be compressed (can be uncompressed as the level of compression is configurable and can be set to zero). Assuming it’s compressed flac versus wav you’ll have extra processing from decompressing and/or decoding versus more disk read access (from the always decompressed wav being a larger file).

 

[dminches]

wav is uncompressed, flac tends to be compressed (can be uncompressed as the level of compression is configurable and can be set to zero). Assuming it’s compressed flac versus wav you’ll have extra processing from decompressing and/or decoding versus more disk read access (from the always decompressed wav being a larger file).

When does the decompression occur? Doesn’t XDMS send uncompressed data to the DAC? If so, I don’t see why there would be a difference.

 

[Taiko Audio]

When does the decompression occur? Doesn’t XDMS send uncompressed data to the DAC? If so, I don’t see why there would be a difference.

Depending on where the alpha is at right now in realtime on playback or upon cached file creation. Edward can answer that. For real comparisons you have to download the actual files from Qobuz and store locally as even something as file integrated metadata can be audible.

 

[dminches]

Depending on where the alpha is at right now in realtime on playback or upon cached file creation. Edward can answer that. For real comparisons you have to download the actual files from Qobuz and store locally as even something as file integrated metadata can be audible.

Oh. I was just thinking of the comparison of local flac vs local wave.

Do you think they should sound materially different.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Oh. I was just thinking of the comparison of local flac vs local wave.

Do you think they should sound materially different.

Yes there are differences which XDMS will mitigate, I just don’t know if that piece of coding is implemented in the current alpha.

 

[cat6man]

Yes there are differences which XDMS will mitigate, I just don’t know if that piece of coding is implemented in the current alpha.

it is great to hear that you have specific coding for xdms that will mitigate the issue.
i just compared local WAV with local uncompressed FLAC and even uncompressed FLAC is audibly below WAV.

 

[Taiko Audio]

it is great to hear that you have specific coding for xdms that will mitigate the issue.
i just compared local WAV with local uncompressed FLAC and even uncompressed FLAC is audibly below WAV.

edit: it’s not yet implemented so there’s currently still an additional process running to convert flac in realtime (which you can hear).

 

[Kris]

Yes, I knew about the RAM caches - even CD players used it. But in this case the needed encryption adds another layer of complexity to the process. Are you using this encryption process to improve sound quality in any way?

Encription alwas adds additional processing of coding and decoding.
This has to be audibile untill Emile will find a way to eliminate its degrating impact.

I also tested it with simple use of ipad as a remote.
The quality of sound reproduction changes depanding if you have private wifi connection v not private.
With private connection you have a little more harshness in high frequency.

This is also a reason for wired connection I use for remote in critical listening sessions.

 

[Nils]

Encription alwas adds additional processing of coding and decoding.
This has to be audibile untill Emile will find a way to eliminate its degrating impact.

I also tested it with simple use of ipad as a remote.
The quality of sound reproduction changes depanding if you have private wifi connection v not private.
With private connection you have a little more harshness in high frequency.

This is also a reason for wired connection I use for remote in critical listening sessions.

XDMS Alpha is evolving SO nicely....

The most recent backend-patch (v221110) has significantly improved overall SQ
Stability remain good
Functionality is incrementally increasing

So far - not a single degradation of SQ (only improvements) -> team Taiko's development and regression testing process is working!

Alpha-users are thrilled to be on this ride!

 

[Christiaan Punter]

it is great to hear that you have specific coding for xdms that will mitigate the issue.
i just compared local WAV with local uncompressed FLAC and even uncompressed FLAC is audibly below WAV.

I have done comparisons using albums downloaded from Qobuz in FLAC and WAV and comparing them to their streaming counterparts. I have done this with several servers, the Extreme included. There is indeed a consistent difference, where streaming FLAC sounds slightly more processed and boxed-in and local FLAC sounds freeer and slightly more lively. Local WAV sounds even more concrete and expressive. For me, WAV is best, I think it is most accurate and unedited. But depending on personal preferences and the rest of the system, some may prefer the relatively more fluid quality of FLAC over the relatively drier quality of WAV. With that said, I think streaming from Qobuz sounds so very good that it can almost be considered an academic difference. Nevertheless, we aim to mitigate the difference in XDMS at some point.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Generally what I’ve noticed is the nearer the centre the footers are, the more of the footer’s effect and sound you’re going to get. So if you like your rack a lot put the footers nearer the edge; if you like your footers a lot put them nearer the center.

It's not as straightforward as that. What I found is the predominant deciding factor, is which material has the most flex. Is it the audio component's bottom, or the underlayment material?Or in case of Artesania Exoteryc, the linear arms? Note that the Carbon Fiber arms are more flexible than the steel arms, and they respond differently. In general, more flex leads to a freer, more fluid sound and less flex leads to more tightness and control. Since the Extreme's bottom is extremely stiff, the Artesania arms become the predominant source of flex. Thus, it will sound tighter if you position the feet in the inside of the arms instead of on the outer extremes. Do note, however, that the linear arm's horizontal support structure also flexes. In this case, a tighter sound will be achieved when positioning the feet closer to the rack's left and right sides.

For every system, there will be an optimum, but you will have to go find it by experimenting.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

That is amazing that you are getting <1 gap with Qobuz streaming. We need to get Ed to peek into your system and see what is different with your system vs. everyone else.

I believe with HP's there would not be much of a difference. I noticed the difference as I said with more of a holographic sound with instruments spread out on the soundstage with space around each voice and instruments.

Talk to Ed about Discovery vs Concert. Yesterday he said Concert could have a slight sonic advantage. In my set ups it definitely does.

Like I said all system and user dependent. But I would suggest to have Ed look at how you are getting <1 sec gap which is gapless via streaming Qobuz when no one else is. That's a great thing.

ED- Why not see how Simorag is getting <1 sec gaps with streaming?

For me, the difference in sound quality between Concert and Discovery is too small to worry about. Other aspects such as the recent patch simply eclipse the delta.

 

[Rhapsody]

That is amazing that you are getting <1 gap with Qobuz streaming. We need to get Ed to peek into your system and see what is different with your system vs. everyone else.

I believe with HP's there would not be much of a difference. I noticed the difference as I said with more of a holographic sound with instruments spread out on the soundstage with space around each voice and instruments.

Talk to Ed about Discovery vs Concert. Yesterday he said Concert could have a slight sonic advantage. In my set ups it definitely does.

Like I said all system and user dependent. But I would suggest to have Ed look at how you are getting <1 sec gap which is gapless via streaming Qobuz when no one else is. That's a great thing.

ED- Why not see how Simorag is getting <1 sec gaps with streaming?

I admit that I was doubting how that Simorag was getting less than 1>sec gap time with Qobuz streaming. I apologize.

Over in the discord channel it was noted that the gap times could be dependent on the physical location of a user with proximity to one of the Qobuz aggregators, which apparently are placed in various locations around the globe.

Simorag is getting <1 sec Qobuz gap times. He lives in Italy. I and many other reporters are getting 3-4 sec gap times between tracks. The other day I had a consistent 12 sec gap time on the Pink Floyd The Wall album between tracks 4 and 5.

If in fact this is the case regarding the physical proximity to Qobuz aggregators we should all move to Italy

 

[Steve williams]

That back end patch was amazing as it once again upped the SQ once more.

Can someone help me to understand what a back end patch does. All I know is that it made a huge difference

I tend to agree with @Christiaan that the difference between Discovery and Concert mode is too small to make a big issue about

 

[cat6man]

edit: it’s not yet implemented so there’s currently still an additional process running to convert flac in realtime (which you can hear).

So I'm not crazy and imagining things??????

 

[cat6man]

For real comparisons you have to download the actual files from Qobuz and store locally as even something as file integrated metadata can be audible.

So, the elephant in the room is "should we minimize extraneous metadata", change embedded album covers to external jpg files, etc???

We've had a discussion started on discord regarding the extra, often hidden, metadata that exists in many music files. I used musicbrainz Picard to look at metadata and found literally dozens of tags can be hiding in files. As examples, itunes has a number of their own meta tags embedded. Often, live concert recording made by intrepid fan(atics) have custom tags listing details of their recordings, taping equipment, their home web pages, etc.

 

[cat6man]

That back end patch was amazing as it once again upped the SQ once more.

Can someone help me to understand what a back end patch does. All I know is that it made a huge difference

It is a general term for any change on the server/player end, as opposed to the client/remote end.

Anything done at the server/player from processing and preparing the playback data, managing the streaming and buffers, scanning and maintaining the music database is at the backend (aka server/player) side.

A backend patch is just a change/update to that server/player software that doesn't require a full re-installation.

 

[Steve williams]

All I know is that it made a big uptick in the sound

 

[Taiko Audio]

So I'm not crazy and imagining things??????

Not imagining

 

[Di-fi]

For music storage it’s less critical

Forgive my curiosity about this subject

For the OS and possibly less for the music files the difference in sound quality between SSDs caught me by surprise some time ago. I was aware of the advantage of installing better RAM (for example Apacer sticks) and at the same time exploit that as buffer for playing music. I also learned when possible use PCIe M.2 for SSD and avoid SATA.
The best of it all is you do not need an Extreme to hear it, I can confirm.
Recently in their online forum Antipodes recommended a specific SSD # for music storage after many trials, confirming the importance of comparing and selecting (they seem to use connection over SATA for music SSDs in K and S series).

I have no doubt for Taiko selecting the Intel Optane 900P PCIe for the OS was a careful process. So it would be interesting to know if (or not) this same selection process was used for music files storage?

''Taiko Audio said: Intel 665P, 670P, Western Digital Red.''

Would you say the proposed NVMe SSD alternatives for music storage are equal in quality? But stand out above the rest (of the ones tried)?
Or, do you have particular recommendations for NVMe music storage on the ASUS Hyper M.2 x16? Or when not, maybe less critical means it just can not be heard significantly in this setup?