Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Steve williams]

another Emile "pearl of the day"

With XDMS we're working towards eliminating storage location sensitivity, and I am very confident we will accomplish that.

 

[dminches]

Very expensive

It is, but so is every option.

And maybe you can sell the 2 TB sticks to someone who just wants a little more expansion.

 

[SwissTom]

In the end it will matter what we have all spend, a lot will change in the next 1-2 years, and we are progressing on a path where we are trying to "waste" an absolute minimum of our customers investments. Hence I should disclose that purchasing 8TB M.2 drives is risking a significant write off and therefor I do not really recommend taking that route.

Few companies, especially in high-end audio, offer this sort of value/service/advice to their customers.

It's a very honest way to build customer loyalty and deserves the praise of the community.

Cheers,

Thomas

 

[Di-fi]

I have 8 TB of music storage on my Extreme and am just about to run out of space. Like a number of other Extreme users, I have embraced the PGGB "remastering" program and this results in larger files (and, I might add, fantastic sounding music with the right DAC). Eventually, I expect to need 30 or more TB of music storage.

Today, I hooked up a Western Digital 8TB external hard drive ($150 USD on Amazon) to the Extreme and configured both Roon and TAS to include the new drive (“E” on the Extreme) when searching for music. Within minutes I was playing files from the new external drive. The first couple tracks sounded pretty darn good and there were no issues with playback.

Questions for other people here:

1) Have you tried using a conventional external hard drive, attached to one of the Extreme's USB storage ports, to store music?
2) If so, how has that worked for you and have you noticed any negative effects on sonic quality?

If there are no negative effects, the incentive to use a conventional external drive is strong:

-If you want to add NVMe PCIe M.2 internal storage to your Extreme, you will pay roughly $125 to $150 (USD) per TB. If you go the conventional hard drive route, you will pay less than $20 per TB.
-The less internal storage you require inside your Extreme, the more flexibility you should have with your PCIe slots.

A question for @Taiko Audio and others is whether the use of an external drive will degrade sonic quality or present other problems. If music is cached to RAM, are you eliminating any adverse sonic effects? I am not presently using XDMS and still rely pretty heavily on TAS. But with TAS, you can choose Batch mode, which, if I recall correctly, preloads up to 25 tracks in RAM. Wouldn't that eliminate SQ issues with an external drive?

Also, with the advances Taiko is making in eliminating network noise with XDMS, the new Switch, the new Router, and other products we haven't even heard about, will internal storage have any advantage over external storage?

With regard to XDMS, my understanding is that it 1) allows you to cache tracks to RAM; but 2) does NOT currently allow users to designate any library or drive other than the “D” drive on the Extreme, making reliance on an external drive impossible. I and others have requested this feature on Discord and will continue to do so.

I will also continue to listen to music stored on my external drive and compare it to the same music on my internal drive and eventually report back. I like what I've heard so far (very preliminary).

Good questions regarding storage but you did not get your answer yet. Let me try. There are quite a few options for internal and external storage. Based on what I have (selectively) read in this thread :

It seems in your situation with a HDD drive attached through USB without a linear power supply you hear great sound indeed but still you could get much better sound. Regarding buffer, it‘s gain is debated much but in my experience your music files will be played to RAM compromised by HDD noise, the connection type, the SMPS and so on. Buffer to excellent quality RAM could give a relative improvement for that file when compared to not buffered but RAM is not a filter or ''cleaner''. In the end, files from HDD buffered in RAM will not give you the same level of sound quality as for example internal PCIe memory and possibly the level of today's streaming with XDMS. And then the switch WITH internal M.2 type memory might beat everything again. Even though because of the price ($ / Gb) of NVMe SSD that is not necessarily the level of sound quality you are looking for.

Below a few storage options and expected sound quality over time after introduction of XDMS, the Taiko switch and the Taiko router. For example it is expected streaming will become as good as files from internal storage, so where the yellow line meets the red line (in one-two years I guess). I had to come up with scores for each storage type to build the graph (I will have to double check again), they are not absolute. Also we will never reach ten. Please don't pin me down on some possible variations. Neither did I consider wav, flac, DSD or PGGB files. But of all options it seems to me HDD stays at the bottom (light blue and orange) even though it sounds very good today. Note that all external storage greatly benefit from a good linear power supply. Hope this helps.

 

[rando]

With regard to upcoming developments and considering too various recent comments made by Emile on the subject, I am beginning to think that local storage may actually no longer be a requirement and that streaming could potentially end up sounding better than local files. I had been looking at extra storage capacity for my Extreme but will hold off for now because I suspect that I may not need it.

One of the better uses of storage capacity in any streaming system is using your own internal processing to allocate it on a server. It is hard to predict when and in what number recordings one desires to stream are found to no longer be available on any service at that time.

I might instead of asking about permanent external or wholesale replacement of, hard drives. Deliver a request confining elements of terminal storage from those of infrequent or unknown length. For your purposes that would be defining if a suitable amount of GB would be moved onto a temporary disc handling only high write and erase data. Fun stuff compared to refiling a virtual cabinet to accommodate a 24% storage capacity increase cost efficiently.

 

[DW101]

I've got all my music (CD-Rips and downloads purchased from HDTracks / Qobuz) and a growing number of PGGB versions of those stored in Google Drive (allegedly infinite storage allowance). (+ Photo backups, etc.)
I then have local NAS storage which currently can hold all the above (around 35TB max storage IIRC).
And I currently have the CD-Rips & purchases, plus my growing PGGB library, on my 16TB Extreme.

As I come across / remember albums I want to PGGB-ify - heresy wrt the bit-perfect discussion, I'm sure! - I continue to do that (but I need a source file of course, so streaming services are still important for discovery / where I can't get a source file).

My plan has basically been to move towards the end state when space considerations demand it of keeping a curated set of files for full-on listening sessions on my Extreme (still a fairly large pool of music), and when I fancy some fresh blood in the local Extreme library or want to listen to particular music I'd do the appropriate admin as needed. At some point the NAS will stop being a full back up and just become a larger holding area, or I'll stop using it for music entirely. I'm still some way off that though as I've been selective with what I've PGGB-d to date. Other files & Qobuz still sound great, anyway - I was 'accidentally' exposed to some MP3 files in a recent listening session with my wife where she revisited some music from her youth (we merged our libraries), and it sounded remarkable given the codec and bit rate.

FWIW on external NAS quality (I've never tried a USB drive), when I got my Extreme last summer (using Roon, before I switched to TAS then XDMS) I did a comparison and thought that local files sounded better - I was actually expecting the NAS to be further behind than it was, though, but I had paid lots of attention with low noise LPSs and shielding of cables. And to be fair subsequent developments in my system (XDMS, better cables, better grounding), may now make the difference more obvious.

I'm very excited about the pleasure I'll get from the coming journey with the roadmap products reducing system noise floor, as I keep an ear on SQ increases (from what it has to be said seems to me to be already a wondrous level). In particular I'm looking forward to the longer-term goal of changing out my DAC (Chord DAVE + DC4 / ARC) for one with a high sample-rate TACDD capability.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Bit perfect in reference to the files that are being downloaded from the service provider server. What else could we be asking? Fortunately we know our CD rips are bit perfect, I hope we can expect the same in streaming.

People have short memory. During many years, CD players were rated by their error correction capability - "experts" used the Pierre Verany Digital test CD - I still own it - filled with all kind of imperfections, and the best were just the transports that managed to track better the challenging tracks - they were supposed to be more "bit exact" - at that time we said they had less bit errors. Only much later it was found that even average CD reading mechanisms had a minimal number or no errors in real playback and the famous torture tracks were omitted from review measurements, that focused on jitter and subjective aspects of sound quality.

If we can't be sure that we are getting the "proper" bits and consumers and reviewers do not have access to tools to know the situation, I would really say "Houston, we have a problem". We have still a lot to learn until we can trust in streaming.

Interestingly, optical data readout is highly prone to error but the Reed Solomon Code in PCM is highly apt at fixing the read errors. Most of the time, it does this in a non-destructive way (restoring the original data). In some cases, there may be rounding errors, which still might not be noticeable. In rarer cases, normally only in case of corrosion or damage of the reflective layer or with severe scratches, this may lead to drop-outs or skips. But across the board, we can indeed say that optical data readout is very reliable. And indeed, it is easy to make a bit-perfect rip.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

A question then... if I have a CD rip to lossless FLAC, and convert to WAV via some software converter, does the newly minted WAV file sound the same as a rip directly to WAV? I have a lot of lossless FLAC files. And what do I gain and/or lose making a change besides possible sound quality improvement?

I've often wondered about that myself. Theoretically, a rip to FLAC (which is essentially a WAV rip that is converted to FLAC during the rip process) which the user then converts back to WAV offline (so not on the fly during playback) should be identical to a straight WAV rip.

I plan to try the rip to WAV versus rip to FLAC and convert to WAV

I've long had a lingering intent to perform such a test but never got around to actually doing so. As such, I'm interested to read the results of your test.

 

[microstrip]

Interestingly, optical data readout is highly prone to error but the Reed Solomon Code in PCM is highly apt at fixing the read errors. Most of the time, it does this in a non-destructive way (restoring the original data). In some cases, there may be rounding errors, which still might not be noticeable. In rarer cases, normally only in case of corrosion or damage of the reflective layer or with severe scratches, this may lead to drop-outs or skips. But across the board, we can indeed say that optical data readout is very reliable. And indeed, it is easy to make a bit-perfect rip.

Your remark is very interesting - the way the "0"'s and "1"s - the bits - are stored in optical media (CD in this case) is fragile, intrinsically noisy and extremely variable - disks have different reflecting properties, plastics had very different transparency and pit boundaries are variable, but some people seem to prefer it to the more perfect way of doing things. IMO probably because CD can more easily emulate the kind of sound they have been used to along decades listening to vinyl and become their reference for sound reproduction.

If we look carefully we find that the more praised audiophile CD transports have poor jitter specification. Some companies introduced extremely low jitter transport/ DAC systems and were considered as mechanical sounding by many audiophiles.

 

[microstrip]

I've often wondered about that myself. Theoretically, a rip to FLAC (which is essentially a WAV rip that is converted to FLAC during the rip process) which the user then converts back to WAV offline (so not on the fly during playback) should be identical to a straight WAV rip.

I've long had a lingering intent to perform such a test but never got around to actually doing so. As such, I'm interested to read the results of your test.

Properly carrying such digital files comparison tests is a an extremely time consuming job. We have to exclude all bias sources and carry a very large number of tests and carefuly analyse the results to get a result with a statistical meaning.

In my experience comparisons between analog sources are much easier and reliable - we easily identify a few aspects such as timbre or noise that help us unconsciously indentifying the sources. But surely many times this identification biases our findings.

 

[Sampajanna]

Do all Taiko come with the USB upgrade now?
Also, sorry if this was discussed but will the router and switch both be needed of SOTA chain when they come out or does the router replace the switch?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Do all Taiko come with the USB upgrade now?
Also, sorry if this was discussed but will the router and switch both be needed of SOTA chain when they come out or does the router replace the switch?

Thanks in advance.

We have just updated the Extreme retail pricing from Euro 24.000 to Euro 28.000. The new retail include the upgrade USB, new SFP network card and the optional flightcase and therefor makes for a very minor net increase, however another priceraise is on the horizon. We have managed to compensate for the overal rise in material / manufacturing costs by moving machining to in house but we are facing an increase in overhead due to an increasing demand in customer support (with a growing customer base) requiring additional personnel to man our support desk (Ed and I are not going to be able to do this “for free” indefinitely) and some of the R&D we’re performing will need to be recouped from general turnover.

 

[Kris]

We have just updated the Extreme retail pricing from Euro 24.000 to Euro 28.000. The new retail include the upgrade USB, new SFP network card and the optional flightcase and therefor makes for a very minor net increase, however another priceraise is on the horizon. We have managed to compensate for the overal rise in material / manufacturing costs by moving machining to in house but we are facing an increase in overhead due to an increasing demand in customer support (with a growing customer base) requiring additional personnel to man our support desk (Ed and I are not going to be able to do this “for free” indefinitely) and some of the R&D we’re performing will need to be recouped from general turnover.

Emile
If I count correctly you did not incease the price at all.
Extreme 24
usb 2.5
net 1.6
case 0.9
It is the same as we were buying it.

Actually it is little cheaper now as someone will pay shipping once , not 4 times.

 

[gds7368]

Can Taiko Audio share how they chose their name, and perhaps what it means to you personally?

Related to the drums?

WHAT'S TAIKO - Taiko Center Co., Ltd.

Taiko Center Co., Ltd. is a Japanese taiko company based in Kyoto. You can purchase our taiko drums from outside Japan. If you will come to Japan, please stop by our studios and take taiko lessons.

www.taiko-center.co.jp

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile
If I count correctly you did not incease the price at all.
Extreme 24
usb 2.5
net 1.6
case 0.9
It is the same as we were buying it.

Actually it is little cheaper now as someone will pay shipping once , not 4 times.

That would be 24 + 1.6 + 1.6 + 0.4 for 27.6 in total

 

[Taiko Audio]

Can Taiko Audio share how they chose their name, and perhaps what it means to you personally?

Related to the drums?

WHAT'S TAIKO - Taiko Center Co., Ltd.

Taiko Center Co., Ltd. is a Japanese taiko company based in Kyoto. You can purchase our taiko drums from outside Japan. If you will come to Japan, please stop by our studios and take taiko lessons.

www.taiko-center.co.jp

Yes it’s a reference to Taiko drums. What these instruments represent is a particular important aspect and focus of sound reproduction to me.

 

[VPN]

On a completely different topic, I suggest we schedule a Taiko dinner/beer for those of us who go to the Munich High End 2023 (May 18-21).

 

[Rhapsody]

On a completely different topic, I suggest we schedule a Taiko dinner/beer for those of us who go to the Munich High End 2023 (May 18-21).

Might be hard to get a reservation for 100+

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Yes it’s a reference to Taiko drums.

...whew, sounds like we may have been closer than we ever knew to owning a Timpani Extreme!

And like the Taiko Extreme music server, seeing a taiko drum performance live is a mighty and mighty awesome experience.

 

[SwissTom]

Yes it’s a reference to Taiko drums. What these instruments represent is a particular important aspect and focus of sound reproduction to me

Reproducing music is a rather complex and difficult thing.

Percussions, be it Sado's Taiko or the percussions accompanying certain symphonies, is quite a challenge.

The whole chain of reproduction is put to the test. Whether it is the DAC, the amplification, the speakers or/and the listening room.

It is then critical that this chain is fed by a quality source: the "Taiko Extreme Suite", if I may call it so.

It is truly exciting to follow the progress of Taiko Audio's products and innovations.