Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Tango]

I fear Master Kodomo is correct with his assessment that absorbtion at the righ places increases the ability to hear smallest cues than to reduce it...

I won't deny Kodomo's knowledge on this.

But at my place it does not require a measurement to recognize a sunshine . Cues and ambient info are the easiest to hear and they are not subjective to anything. Either you hear them because they are obvious or you don't. I wonder if it was MikeL who posted this, would a friendly reminder be made.

Pity we don't have a teleporter like Starship Enterprise. So we just keep guessing on one's listening room.

The mountain might be Switzerland, but the trees upfront still are in Liechtenstein. Just Beautiful.

Tang

 

[kodomo]

Yes, it can be better like I have also stated in my message and I am sure you can evaluate it. I just wrote to stress this; There is a general tendency to think that absorption kills the sound in rooms which is wrong. It is always the correct application that matters.

Furthermore, even if you were loosing minor qualities of sound, listening is not just an audial experience. If sunshine or a good view adds to your experience, than that is the way to go.

I have my whole back wall out of windows from floor to ceiling and I would never close that. It is 6 meters away from my listening point though

 

[christoph]

I won't deny Kodomo's knowledge on this.

But at my place it does not require a measurement to recognize a sunshine . Cues and ambient info are the easiest to hear and they are not subjective to anything. Either you hear them because they are obvious or you don't.

Pity we don't have a teleporter like Starship Enterprise. So we just keep guessing on one's listening room.

Your ears I trust without the slightest hint of a doubt

The mountain might be Switzerland, but the trees upfront still are in Liechtenstein. Just Beautiful.

You are certainly right, thank you

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I won't deny Kodomo's knowledge on this.

But at my place it does not require a measurement to recognize a sunshine . Cues and ambient info are the easiest to hear and they are not subjective to anything. Either you hear them because they are obvious or you don't. I wonder if it was MikeL who posted this, would a friendly reminder be made.

Pity we don't have a teleporter like Starship Enterprise. So we just keep guessing on one's listening room.

The mountain might be Switzerland, but the trees upfront still are in Liechtenstein. Just Beautiful.

Tang

dear Tang,

yes; my mountain view out my windows fell a victim of my push for my reference. but my ears are now happy.

not exactly sure what you are referring to. but i think it's about having confidence that you have a clear reference when you are doing room tuning. that was my experience. yes; it is listening for particular clues, but more than that trusting your ears and knowing how to get your mind to the right place.

my story was that i had visited a friend who had my same speakers and amps and a good room and heard some musical aspects that i liked in terms of imaging. he had cloth on a similar front wall to mine. in essence in my mind it completed a picture of what i wanted. like a key unlocking a door. next i just had to start the process, which i did by trying pieces of cloth on my ceiling, which got me closer to the reference in my mind. which then set me off on a long process of taming my room.

i had 100 tracks i would play (about 20 analog) every time i made a change. sometimes it would be a week of listening. sometimes 2 or 3 hours. i would be in a 'zen' state of just laying back and enjoying. i did this for 9 months. the key being the reference in my mind. as i went along my reference evolved as my system caught up to and passed my reference and then it was being moved forward.

so the key was to know what i wanted. exactly. and i already had the room and system at hand so the potential was sitting there waiting for me to catch up to what it might do.

not sure if that was what you were referring to or not.

my comment on your situation particularly would be to keep your own council. by that i mean to say that you need to find a reference sound that YOU want, and go after it. removing all the acoustic treatment or adding more is not the issue; it's you knowing where you are going. then being patient to use trial and error to find it.

horn speakers in a less than perfect room is a different equation than what i started with. so i can't really apply my process to your situation. it's very different.

it's ok to trust others for this stuff, but then the next step is precarious because it's not our own reference we are wanting. it's another's viewpoint. but there is no right or wrong to it. the whole room tuning thing can be a pain. for me it was total love and wonder once i got into it. i was propelled forward by the discovery process and the excitement every day.

and if you are really there now then god bless.

sorry if rambled on here......

best regards,

Mike

 

[Lagonda]

dear Tang,

yes; my mountain view out my windows fell a victim of my push for my reference. but my ears are now happy.

not exactly sure what you are referring to. but i think it's about having confidence that you have a clear reference when you are doing room tuning. that was my experience. yes; it is listening for particular clues, but more than that trusting your ears and knowing how to get your mind to the right place.

my story was that i had visited a friend who had my same speakers and amps and a good room and heard some musical aspects that i liked in terms of imaging. he had cloth on a similar front wall to mine. in essence in my mind it completed a picture of what i wanted. like a key unlocking a door. next i just had to start the process, which i did by trying pieces of cloth on my ceiling, which got me closer to the reference in my mind. which then set me off on a long process of taming my room.

i had 100 tracks i would play (about 20 analog) every time i made a change. sometimes it would be a week of listening. sometimes 2 or 3 hours. i would be in a 'zen' state of just laying back and enjoying. i did this for 9 months. the key being the reference in my mind. as i went along my reference evolved as my system caught up to and passed my reference and then it was being moved forward.

so the key was to know what i wanted. exactly. and i already had the room and system at hand so the potential was sitting there waiting for me to catch up to what it might do.

not sure if that was what you were referring to or not.

my comment on your situation particularly would be to keep your own council. by that i mean to say that you need to find a reference sound that YOU want, and go after it. removing all the acoustic treatment or adding more is not the issue; it's you knowing where you are going. then being patient to use trial and error to find it.

horn speakers in a less than perfect room is a different equation than what i started with. so i can't really apply my process to your situation. it's very different.

it's ok to trust others for this stuff, but then the next step is precarious because it's not our own reference we are wanting. it's another's viewpoint. but there is no right or wrong to it. the whole room tuning thing can be a pain. for me it was total love and wonder once i got into it. i was propelled forward by the discovery process and the excitement every day.

and if you are really there now then god bless.

sorry if rambled on here......

best regards,

Mike

Thank you for your wise words Mike, it is nice to hear about your process of
creating your perfect room. Did you go trough this with your current speakers
or was it a previous pair ? I imagine the impact on the room with your
4 tower system is substantial.

 

[ddk]

Yes, it can be better like I have also stated in my message and I am sure you can evaluate it. I just wrote to stress this; There is a general tendency to think that absorption kills the sound in rooms which is wrong. It is always the correct application that matters.

Furthermore, even if you were loosing minor qualities of sound, listening is not just an audial experience. If sunshine or a good view adds to your experience, than that is the way to go.

I have my whole back wall out of windows from floor to ceiling and I would never close that. It is 6 meters away from my listening point though

There's always absorption used in rooms, carpeting, furniture, paintings, bookcases, etc., etc. and like you said how it's applied matters but also how much and what you use to achieve the goal matters. In all my years I've never found a situation where commercial wall tampons of any kind didn't do more harm than good, I usually opt for constructing custom products that match the rooms existing acoustics and decor with ordinary materials. IMO one needs to consider the space and the owners preferences when planning treatment then apply the minimum. Of course if one has the luxury of building the room from ground up the so called ideal space is easier to arrive at.

Edit- A very important factor to consider is the type and quality of system involved, ie are you balancing the ills of certain components and tweaks or is the room acoustics that are creating the problem.

david

 

[Folsom]

Hey Tang, what sound do those windows make if you tap on them with your middle knuckle? If it’s dunk dunk, very flat, then they are laminated safety glass. That type of glass is reflective but not adverse to good sound. It’s actually very desirable so long as it doesn’t make any too-early reflections.

But if it makes a doink doink sound then it’s a good thing you got horns!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you for your wise words Mike, it is nice to hear about your process of
creating your perfect room. Did you go trough this with your current speakers
or was it a previous pair ? I imagine the impact on the room with your
4 tower system is substantial.

I switched to the 4-tower MM7’s from the MM3’s in 2012, I started the ‘final’ room tuning process in 2015. So it was with the MM7’s.

I could have done the same process with the MM3’s but I needed to evolve beyond where I was at that time. I was the problem, not the gear or the room. Eventually when I got to the bass tuning part of that room tuning, the MM7’s did give me more control over the result, but not a big difference.

I do consider that process a big aspect of my current system performance. Hard to quantify the impact but maybe 30-40 percent impact in involvement increase. Bigger is the feeling I just don’t think about system performance any more....or feel any need to futze or mess around.

 

[Tango]

Hey Tang, what sound do those windows make if you tap on them with your middle knuckle? If it’s dunk dunk, very flat, then they are laminated safety glass. That type of glass is reflective but not adverse to good sound. It’s actually very desirable so long as it doesn’t make any too-early reflections.

But if it makes a doink doink sound then it’s a good thing you got horns!

It is a dunk dunk laminated safety glass.

I should not have used the word "absorber" panel. Instead I should just said I remove Object 1,2,3. Regardless of what that Objects were that I removed, it yields results I was aiming for. That objective was achieved without losing the naturalness of instrument plus a few extra that I did not bother to go into details.

 

[Tango]

dear Tang,

yes; my mountain view out my windows fell a victim of my push for my reference. but my ears are now happy.

not exactly sure what you are referring to. but i think it's about having confidence that you have a clear reference when you are doing room tuning. that was my experience. yes; it is listening for particular clues, but more than that trusting your ears and knowing how to get your mind to the right place.

my story was that i had visited a friend who had my same speakers and amps and a good room and heard some musical aspects that i liked in terms of imaging. he had cloth on a similar front wall to mine. in essence in my mind it completed a picture of what i wanted. like a key unlocking a door. next i just had to start the process, which i did by trying pieces of cloth on my ceiling, which got me closer to the reference in my mind. which then set me off on a long process of taming my room.

i had 100 tracks i would play (about 20 analog) every time i made a change. sometimes it would be a week of listening. sometimes 2 or 3 hours. i would be in a 'zen' state of just laying back and enjoying. i did this for 9 months. the key being the reference in my mind. as i went along my reference evolved as my system caught up to and passed my reference and then it was being moved forward.

so the key was to know what i wanted. exactly. and i already had the room and system at hand so the potential was sitting there waiting for me to catch up to what it might do.

not sure if that was what you were referring to or not.

my comment on your situation particularly would be to keep your own council. by that i mean to say that you need to find a reference sound that YOU want, and go after it. removing all the acoustic treatment or adding more is not the issue; it's you knowing where you are going. then being patient to use trial and error to find it.

horn speakers in a less than perfect room is a different equation than what i started with. so i can't really apply my process to your situation. it's very different.

it's ok to trust others for this stuff, but then the next step is precarious because it's not our own reference we are wanting. it's another's viewpoint. but there is no right or wrong to it. the whole room tuning thing can be a pain. for me it was total love and wonder once i got into it. i was propelled forward by the discovery process and the excitement every day.

and if you are really there now then god bless.

sorry if rambled on here......

best regards,

Mike

Sawasdee Mike,

Thank you for sharing the experience you went through. I find the overall concept of your approach and how you realize yourself along the steps very valuable. We sure don't take step unless we have a define objective in mind. And that objective comes from our reference of things that we may not have revealed in public.

Tang

 

[howiebrou]

There's always absorption used in rooms, carpeting, furniture, paintings, bookcases, etc., etc. and like you said how it's applied matters but also how much and what you use to achieve the goal matters. In all my years I've never found a situation where commercial wall tampons of any kind didn't do more harm than good, I usually opt for constructing custom products that match the rooms existing acoustics and decor with ordinary materials. IMO one needs to consider the space and the owners preferences when planning treatment then apply the minimum. Of course if one has the luxury of building the room from ground up the so called ideal space is easier to arrive at.

Edit- A very important factor to consider is the type and quality of system involved, ie are you balancing the ills of certain components and tweaks or is the room acoustics that are creating the problem.

david

As you have seen at my place David, i have nothing in the way of artificial room treatments. Mainly because I personally don't favour the look of treatments strewn all over my living room but also because I am wary of rooms that seem too artificially inert. When one goes to a concert hall, the air is alive, the atmosphere enticing. Quite the opposite of many so called designed rooms. Hopefully my room appeared to you to be relatively lively and not over-damped.

 

[kodomo]

I do not want to turn this into an acoustics topic as I think forum has a specific place for that but still I would like to add some things.

@ddk
David, I have in one of my books, the measurements made with the same rooms with and without furniture and its measurable effects. It actually had a few scenarios with couches etc. I will find it and attach it here later on. You are right, furniture does make absorption but unpredictably. You can not design around it but you can design after it. You can measure a room with existing furniture and then proceed with whatever is needed. You should never design without accounting for what goes in the room anyway.

@howiebrou
If you want to hear what has been recorded at the concert hall, then just like your equipment, you need your room to get out of the way. The idea is to have a transparent room and listen to the recordings. This does not mean over or underdamped. If your room is lively, that is your rooms character, if it is significant, then that signature will be on all recordings.



There are two things you can not achieve with just furniture or placement. One is linear bass response in a room below its schroeder frequency. The other is linear decay throughout the audio band. If you want to hear a concert halls ambience in the recording, your room should have a linear decay response so that it can translate the decay characteristic of that specific hall. Please do not mix performance space with reproduction space, they need different approaches as they are for different things.

 

[Hieukm]

I do not want to turn this into an acoustics topic as I think forum has a specific place for that but still I would like to add some things.

@ddk
David, I have in one of my books, the measurements made with the same rooms with and without furniture and its measurable effects. It actually had a few scenarios with couches etc. I will find it and attach it here later on. You are right, furniture does make absorption but unpredictably. You can not design around it but you can design after it. You can measure a room with existing furniture and then proceed with whatever is needed. You should never design without accounting for what goes in the room anyway.

@howiebrou
If you want to hear what has been recorded at the concert hall, then just like your equipment, you need your room to get out of the way. The idea is to have a transparent room and listen to the recordings. This does not mean over or underdamped. If your room is lively, that is your rooms character, if it is significant, they that signature will be on all recordings.



There are two things you can not achieve with just furniture or placement. One is linear bass response in a room below its schroeder frequency. The other is linear decay throughout the audio band. If you want to hear a concert halls ambience in the recording, your room should have a linear decay response so that it can translate the decay characteristic of that specific hall. Please do not mix performance space with reproduction space, they need different approaches as they are for different things.

Thank you for such details response. I would like to know:

How to get the linear decay? I thought the ambiance of concert halls depends on your system clarity more than your room reverb?

 

[ddk]

I do not want to turn this into an acoustics topic as I think forum has a specific place for that but still I would like to add some things.

@ddk
David, I have in one of my books, the measurements made with the same rooms with and without furniture and its measurable effects. It actually had a few scenarios with couches etc. I will find it and attach it here later on. You are right, furniture does make absorption but unpredictably. You can not design around it but you can design after it. You can measure a room with existing furniture and then proceed with whatever is needed. You should never design without accounting for what goes in the room anyway.

@howiebrou
If you want to hear what has been recorded at the concert hall, then just like your equipment, you need your room to get out of the way. The idea is to have a transparent room and listen to the recordings. This does not mean over or underdamped. If your room is lively, that is your rooms character, if it is significant, they that signature will be on all recordings.



There are two things you can not achieve with just furniture or placement. One is linear bass response in a room below its schroeder frequency. The other is linear decay throughout the audio band. If you want to hear a concert halls ambience in the recording, your room should have a linear decay response so that it can translate the decay characteristic of that specific hall. Please do not mix performance space with reproduction space, they need different approaches as they are for different things.

@Howie’s listening room is very well balanced and spacious, of course everything can always be improved but he doesn’t have any major issues to worry about.

I agree with you to move this thread if we’re going to get deeper into the topic, just absorption and dampening alone have many facets.

david

 

[awsmone]

I do not want to turn this into an acoustics topic as I think forum has a specific place for that but still I would like to add some things.

@ddk
David, I have in one of my books, the measurements made with the same rooms with and without furniture and its measurable effects. It actually had a few scenarios with couches etc. I will find it and attach it here later on. You are right, furniture does make absorption but unpredictably. You can not design around it but you can design after it. You can measure a room with existing furniture and then proceed with whatever is needed. You should never design without accounting for what goes in the room anyway.

@howiebrou
If you want to hear what has been recorded at the concert hall, then just like your equipment, you need your room to get out of the way. The idea is to have a transparent room and listen to the recordings. This does not mean over or underdamped. If your room is lively, that is your rooms character, if it is significant, they that signature will be on all recordings.



There are two things you can not achieve with just furniture or placement. One is linear bass response in a room below its schroeder frequency. The other is linear decay throughout the audio band. If you want to hear a concert halls ambience in the recording, your room should have a linear decay response so that it can translate the decay characteristic of that specific hall. Please do not mix performance space with reproduction space, they need different approaches as they are for different things.

thats a great post

i agree so much

getting bass that starts and stops, and the decay of the recording I found hard to achieve and took a lot of work for me going to a full frequency system

thanks so much for your contributions they are very appreciated

but David’s correct... it’s a different topic back to Tango music ......

 

[howiebrou]

I do not want to turn this into an acoustics topic as I think forum has a specific place for that but still I would like to add some things.

@ddk
David, I have in one of my books, the measurements made with the same rooms with and without furniture and its measurable effects. It actually had a few scenarios with couches etc. I will find it and attach it here later on. You are right, furniture does make absorption but unpredictably. You can not design around it but you can design after it. You can measure a room with existing furniture and then proceed with whatever is needed. You should never design without accounting for what goes in the room anyway.

@howiebrou
If you want to hear what has been recorded at the concert hall, then just like your equipment, you need your room to get out of the way. The idea is to have a transparent room and listen to the recordings. This does not mean over or underdamped. If your room is lively, that is your rooms character, if it is significant, then that signature will be on all recordings.



There are two things you can not achieve with just furniture or placement. One is linear bass response in a room below its schroeder frequency. The other is linear decay throughout the audio band. If you want to hear a concert halls ambience in the recording, your room should have a linear decay response so that it can translate the decay characteristic of that specific hall. Please do not mix performance space with reproduction space, they need different approaches as they are for different things.

Thanks. No disagreement there. For sure the sound signature of my room influences the flavour of the music. I am okay with that. I am just happy that is is not overly dead. That would be too spooky and unnatural for me.

 

[awsmone]

Hi TANG

you felt u had an issue with piano and violin

how is it sounding now ? Say on the Kreisler ?

 

[Tango]

Hi TANG

you felt u had an issue with piano and violin

how is it sounding now ? Say on the Kreisler ?

No issue now. I went back to where my system was. Only now with acoustic panels off the front wall. I get clean clear extremely lively sound with great ambient but without losing timbre and harmonic of instrument with woody body. Orchestra is so enjoyable to listen to. For whatever reason, the sound is louder and I was surprised by a cello yesterday that on a certain passage the vibration was reaching me physically. The stage is wider and deeper. The presentation is a few rows back from where used to be. Transient response is so damn quick and sharp. I mean my friend Kedar told me my system is fast but this sounds to me even faster. The only thing I am skeptical of is the glare on high for example on Scheherazade mov4 at cymbal attacks. I think this is only part that seems to bother me.

 

[Hieukm]

No issue now. I went back to where my system was. Only now with acoustic panels off the front wall. I get clean clear extremely lively sound with great ambient but without losing timbre and harmonic of instrument with woody body. Orchestra is so enjoyable to listen to. For whatever reason, the sound is louder and I was surprised by a cello yesterday that on a certain passage the vibration was reaching me physically. The stage is wider and deeper. The presentation is a few rows back from where used to be. Transient response is so damn quick and sharp. I mean my friend Kedar told me my system is fast but this sounds to me even faster. The only thing I am skeptical of is the glare on high for example on Scheherazade mov4 at cymbal attacks. I think this is only part that seems to bother me.

You need to put in some familiar vocal to test the effect of the glassy front wall Mr Tang. If you dont listen to vocal then dont worry about it.

 

[kodomo]

As I have written before that I will attach the graphic related to room with furnishings here, I am not posting it in acoustics forum. It is about the rt60 or rt62 (reverberation).

This is from Toole's book "Sound Reproduction - Third Edition". It also states in the starting of that chapter; "In sound reproduction, the essential hall reverberation is captured in the recording, so nothing additional is required" pg.281

This is what I also have said before and I am also a strong believer on the quality and linearity of the decaying sound. The best response in this graphic has furnitures, drapery, carpet plus membrane absorbers for low frequencies. This is a good combo if the furnitures are already doing enough. Like I pointe out the furniture wont help you with low frequency problems (below your rooms schroeder frequency) that has to be taken care of and via measurement and right application.