Congrats, Tang
The best of health to you and your growing Family, especially to the mother and the newborn.
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
- Start date
The best of health to you and your growing Family, especially to the mother and the newborn.
My Christmas is full of vinyls 
. A box of records from the General comes in time to ho ho ho me. I have been receiving advices and recommendations on classical performances from him. Precious. Now I listen 99% classical. 100% vinyl. 0% tape. Anyone come listen to my system will understand why I do 0% tape and my tape was setup by Mr.Doshi. Vinyl can be that good.
Very messy desk. I have more records in front of me than my business reports.
. A box of records from the General comes in time to ho ho ho me. I have been receiving advices and recommendations on classical performances from him. Precious. Now I listen 99% classical. 100% vinyl. 0% tape. Anyone come listen to my system will understand why I do 0% tape and my tape was setup by Mr.Doshi. Vinyl can be that good. Very messy desk. I have more records in front of me than my business reports
.Both of my kids are sleeping so here we go.
Kronos with SPSC-1 power supply.
- Obvious aspect you notice will be the quietness. Sound especially vocal pops out from dark back ground. The tt itself has small mechanical sound when you walk closer to the motor. This quietness is comparable to the AF1P. My friends who only do digital all gave me this comment. The optional power supply makes the image more focus. This tt sounds more casually lively than the AF1P. With live jazz and vocal I like it more than the AF1P. The presentation is more up front than the Af1 and AS2000. The music from it is dynamic and snappy (fast?) but not weighty like the Af1P and 927. I don't think it does PRaT as well as the other three. My unit had frequent problems with speed control. By the time it got fixed I already felt more confident with other tts. The Kronos plays very well and exciting with new vinyl pressing. With old records it does not preserve the uniqueness of different recording so well. The finish of Kronos is less than impressive although Boonyarat can photograph it so nicely.
AF1P.
- It plays music very clean, neat, articulate, instruments are very organized. If you highly value quietness between notes then this is it. The presentation is less upfront than Kronos but more grand scale. You listen to orchestra or jazz big band you feel that each instrument is neatly laid out. Impressive staging. Some how I often have a sense of watching a parade when I listen. The AF1P has a hefty weighty dynamic probably because of the bass. All these make up exciting sound. I can see why Micro who loves his dCs ditched the 927 and embraces the AF1P. I think it also plays amplified music better than the other tts I have. Basically if you go by check boxes and score of each check box, the AF1P will win most points. You listen to it long enough you notice a sound pattern and it will keep reminding you its impressiveness.
EMT927.
- This tt is the most rhythmic tt of the four. I must remind that I am talking only about my unit. The 927 is 50+ years old so each could be different depending on how it has been maintained. It sounds big...bigger than the other three. I don't know because it is idler or because of its big plinth. It reminded me of the big plinth Acoustic Signature Invictus which also sounds big like the 927 but with better resolution. 927 has quiet back ground but not black back ground like the Kronos and AF1P. The resolution and detail retrieval cannot match the Techdas or AS2000. But frankly It does not lack resolution. If you are not crazy at comparing specific and you dont put the Techdas or AS2000 next to it, you would not be saying what I said. The 927 is even more dynamic than the Af1P. Music has tremendous presence and involvement. Many things MikeL said about his Saskia sounded like he was describing the 927. Your foot will be tapping and attention will be paying to the musical performance. I find the tone to be a little warmer than the others. Best for old jazz. And best with Master Sig.
AS2000.
- Sorry. My baby girl is crying. I take turn with my wife.
Excellent descriptions Tang. The EMT seems to appeal to me the most of the first three based on what you describe. "Tremendous presence and involvement." "Attention to musical performance." Great stuff Tang. Looking forward to comments about AS2000 relative to the first three.
Yes me to ! But i think Tang fell asleep with the baby
Great stuff Tang
it fits with my notion that the more you suppress the noise u also reduce dynamics to some extent
i don’t want noise on my records either, but suppression u lose more than just the noise
i listened to Ascona and latest Platine yesterday
both very quiet, the palatine eerily so
but they lacks dynamic expansion like I am used to at home
i did like the Hyperion cartridge on the Ascona, great midrange on opera
it fits with my notion that the more you suppress the noise u also reduce dynamics to some extent
i don’t want noise on my records either, but suppression u lose more than just the noise
i listened to Ascona and latest Platine yesterday
both very quiet, the palatine eerily so
but they lacks dynamic expansion like I am used to at home
i did like the Hyperion cartridge on the Ascona, great midrange on opera
Continued..
AS2000.
- The American Sound is not a tt that would wow you from the start. It is a tt with no "bling" in sound. No explosive dynamic. The sound stage is narrower, less deep and less layer than the AF1P. Instruments also not neatly laid out like the Techdas. It sure sounds smaller with less rhythmic punch than the EMT 927. And music just does not pop out from muted dark background like the Kronos. To be honest on the first day I did not feel anything very special about it except for hearing music more transparent and open than from the other tts.
It is not a wow tt what good is it then? The more I listen the more AS2000 impresses me with its "naked transparency." It is just so darn transparent so clear so open. This make you hear more from a vinyl and make you able to hear better atmosphere of the recording venue, the difference between pressings of the same music and the new gear or tweaks you add into the system. The nuances coming out of AS is phenomenal..better than AF1P and 927. I think since it does not try to make back ground so quiet by erasing or blackening, or accentuate certain tone, the tiny micro info is still left available to hear. The sound is naked and you will keep hearing things the more you listen to it. It just does not expose things in obvious way. The beauty of its sound is in the naked-ness without putting makeup cosmetic on. More of a beautiful woman in front page of National Geographic rather than Vogue.
Next impressive thing is its ability to expose how a singer control his/her voice, or how a violinist control a stroke of his/her bow. You can hear when there is a tiny shift in control. This helps boost the sense of realism and make you impress how musician or singer perform more than the sound. I value this so highly because I like to compare the same piece of music by different musicians and I choose which one I like more by the way he/she plays. I don't know how much speed consistency and accuracy contribute to this.
Third is the size and scale of images. Big or large is not my cup of tea. To me for things to sound real the size and proportion of sound should give a good approximation to you to visualize the actual event. I listen to a lot of old records. Old recordings tend to not put microphone very close to the sound source like today. So they somewhat sound like you stand away in front and use your hand phone recording a band playing Live. The sound size of AS playing classical old records gives me the sense of realism in term of size closest to my analogy. Ddk might think otherwise but I find 927 while gets less in the way of music, the size of its sound is less realistic in comparison to the AS.
Now this is very important. The AS2000 makes me realize I don't need a sheer grunt, hefty out right constant dynamic to make listening interesting and feel more natural presentation of the musical performance. The AS2000 instead shows me that the contrast in dynamic, tone and timbre when music is performing by different instruments is actually the key to natural sound. Different contrasts at micro and macro level make sound reproduction less homogeneous. The AS 2000 especially with the 3012R allow me to hear these contrasts more than other tts I own.
I cannot end with out saying this. I think the tuning of a cart is so crucial for AS2000 to show how good it is. (Also doing the things that PeterA is doing now.) As I said at beginning the AS has no bling to add to sound. It will pretty much play vinyls as good as the vinyl is...no helping. So you have to have your arm cart set the best you can to extract what is in the groove. I think this is why ddk practically made me learn how to set up a cart. A difference of two cards thick can mean a worm hole that happens infront of you to hear Heifetz playing with the sound of his violin pouring out of that worm hole and the one that like a very clear glass window with less connection to the sound of his violin.
99% of my time is spent listening to music from AS2000 now. The more you listen to music from AS the more you make "realization" of sound, you also realize you don't miss anything, if anything is missing it is probably something down the line in your system, and at the same time be amazed at how much music is in those vinyls. The vinyls themself become a determinant how good the sound will come out of your system.
@ddk. I am sorry my friend the way I wrote about your tt may sound like a lame duck.
Sincerely,
Tang
AS2000.
- The American Sound is not a tt that would wow you from the start. It is a tt with no "bling" in sound. No explosive dynamic. The sound stage is narrower, less deep and less layer than the AF1P. Instruments also not neatly laid out like the Techdas. It sure sounds smaller with less rhythmic punch than the EMT 927. And music just does not pop out from muted dark background like the Kronos. To be honest on the first day I did not feel anything very special about it except for hearing music more transparent and open than from the other tts.
It is not a wow tt what good is it then? The more I listen the more AS2000 impresses me with its "naked transparency." It is just so darn transparent so clear so open. This make you hear more from a vinyl and make you able to hear better atmosphere of the recording venue, the difference between pressings of the same music and the new gear or tweaks you add into the system. The nuances coming out of AS is phenomenal..better than AF1P and 927. I think since it does not try to make back ground so quiet by erasing or blackening, or accentuate certain tone, the tiny micro info is still left available to hear. The sound is naked and you will keep hearing things the more you listen to it. It just does not expose things in obvious way. The beauty of its sound is in the naked-ness without putting makeup cosmetic on. More of a beautiful woman in front page of National Geographic rather than Vogue.
Next impressive thing is its ability to expose how a singer control his/her voice, or how a violinist control a stroke of his/her bow. You can hear when there is a tiny shift in control. This helps boost the sense of realism and make you impress how musician or singer perform more than the sound. I value this so highly because I like to compare the same piece of music by different musicians and I choose which one I like more by the way he/she plays. I don't know how much speed consistency and accuracy contribute to this.
Third is the size and scale of images. Big or large is not my cup of tea. To me for things to sound real the size and proportion of sound should give a good approximation to you to visualize the actual event. I listen to a lot of old records. Old recordings tend to not put microphone very close to the sound source like today. So they somewhat sound like you stand away in front and use your hand phone recording a band playing Live. The sound size of AS playing classical old records gives me the sense of realism in term of size closest to my analogy. Ddk might think otherwise but I find 927 while gets less in the way of music, the size of its sound is less realistic in comparison to the AS.
Now this is very important. The AS2000 makes me realize I don't need a sheer grunt, hefty out right constant dynamic to make listening interesting and feel more natural presentation of the musical performance. The AS2000 instead shows me that the contrast in dynamic, tone and timbre when music is performing by different instruments is actually the key to natural sound. Different contrasts at micro and macro level make sound reproduction less homogeneous. The AS 2000 especially with the 3012R allow me to hear these contrasts more than other tts I own.
I cannot end with out saying this. I think the tuning of a cart is so crucial for AS2000 to show how good it is. (Also doing the things that PeterA is doing now.) As I said at beginning the AS has no bling to add to sound. It will pretty much play vinyls as good as the vinyl is...no helping. So you have to have your arm cart set the best you can to extract what is in the groove. I think this is why ddk practically made me learn how to set up a cart. A difference of two cards thick can mean a worm hole that happens infront of you to hear Heifetz playing with the sound of his violin pouring out of that worm hole and the one that like a very clear glass window with less connection to the sound of his violin.
99% of my time is spent listening to music from AS2000 now. The more you listen to music from AS the more you make "realization" of sound, you also realize you don't miss anything, if anything is missing it is probably something down the line in your system, and at the same time be amazed at how much music is in those vinyls. The vinyls themself become a determinant how good the sound will come out of your system.
@ddk. I am sorry my friend the way I wrote about your tt may sound like a lame duck.
Sincerely,
Tang
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Dear Tang,
You actually explained more about the AS2000 that I usually do. You're absolutely right that AS2000 was designed not to wow anyone with the typical "Vinyl" sound that people expect from a massive turntable. It's the ethos of "Nothing", nothing added and nothing taken away. In my concept, the music should impress and not the components. Any kind of signature wether it's impressive or not is a coloration additive and it will homogenize recordings, basically what you heard and described as an obvious character for your other turntables. A lot turntables, even a Garrard 301 can do the big and impressive but that's not enough, music is about the small too. All the micro and macro dynamics that an instrument produces are in those beautiful grooves but are fragile, AS2000 is unique in it's ability to allow the cartridge and tonearm retrieve all this precious information so you can hear music as it was played in the most natural way. It's the musician that impresses and touches your heart you need complete transparency to have full tonal range and tonal depth and purity so hear the recording and not the gear. This is idea behind AS2000, keep the source intact and natural disappear!
SME 3012-R is AS2000's natural partner, there's no tonearm I've come across at any price that can match the SME's natural bass reproduction not only in tone, timbre and texture but also in volume, the right balance not to exaggerate and according to the recording and not try to impress like many others do. Natural bass is the most difficult part of audio reproduction to get right, it's easy to wow and impress but then it's not natural.
david
Tang,
You have described 'natural sound' with great insight. We are fortunate to hear your perspective, at least thats how I feel.
You have described 'natural sound' with great insight. We are fortunate to hear your perspective, at least thats how I feel.
Of course Tang - but your quote already does that.
Maybe you don't understand Star Wars, baby Skywalker. It was humor.
Tang,
Your comments on the TTs are very informative and much appreciated. Thanks for your careful observations. However, I wonder if you might elaborate a bit more on how you can reliably assess the comparative merits of each table since I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that there are different arms , cartridges and phono stages used for each. (Perhaps some of the systems did have the benefit of some common components such as cartridge, but I am assuming at least some components were not shared i.e. the arm on the EMT is, I believe, unique to the EMT. ) So when you use descriptors that are common parlance in our hobby such as image size and scale, the quietness of the background, the tone of certain instruments, dynamics, etc, my first thoughts are that these can readily apply to the sound of a cartridge, phonstage or even tonearm. I can more easily appreciate that other descriptors such as speed consistency and accuracy are appropriate assignments for turntables, but I'd like to understand how you characterize those other qualifiers as attributable to only the turntable when the associated phonostage, cartridge and tonearms are to some degree disparate among the TT rigs. To be clear, I understand that you may find some combination of table, phonostage, cartridge and arm preferable and that there are sonic descriptors that can can be used for the overall "package". But I'd like to understand the basis for how you ascribe some of the qualifiers you used for the turntables alone, as opposed to the associated components which must necessarily be used alongside them. Your constellation of gear is among the most plentiful and unique on the forum and therefore serves as a teaching tool for many of us. I'm just trying to understand your take-away comments a little better.
Marty
Hi Marty,
It takes time and a lot of switching of gears to understand the nature of each tt. I tried to use all same gears but tt as much as possible when evaluating. And to make sure I don't use my hearing memory too much, I try my best to do a/b at a flick of fingers. I do own two Opus1, two Master Sig. (although not the same output spec.), two original SAT arms, 3 Axiom arms, 4 SME 3012Rs, two EMT JPA66 MkII phonos. And I have tried same arm cart combo in direct a/b manner across three tts. Two tts at a time though otherwise I have to buy more arm and cart of the same type. The EMT 927 is the one I can't use SAT with because it has a fixed unique arm placement. When compare the 927 I had to do it with the Axiom extra long arm instead. I have two Axiom arms made specifically for the 927 and I have one Axiom for mounting AF1P and AS2000. Although I could not do tt comparison with the rest of gears involved being 100% the same in every scenario, but I could get pretty close to that.
To be honest Marty, a big part of reason I bought these tts and gears is because I want to know by myself why these tts were raved so much on social media and if the people who got a loan to review them really knew what they were talking about. I live with them. Now I am over that. I know which fits my preferences most. So my time is mostly on finding new music and enjoying it. That's why you see me more recommending records.
Tang
Great stuff tango. Sounds like you’ve made up your mind. Keep your lovely two new children and sell the old children, err audio gear and pass the love to a new audiophile.
Seriously, have you thought about simplifying your analog laboratory? Your kids will need a place to play in your office.
Seriously, have you thought about simplifying your analog laboratory? Your kids will need a place to play in your office.
As long as we are harassing Tang for every minute detail ; did the SAEC 407/23 you bought bring anything to the table (pun intended) when compared to your flock of 3012R arms?
; did the SAEC 407/23 you bought bring anything to the table (pun intended) when compared to your flock of 3012R arms?Similar threads
