That is one beautiful tonearm. Heard the 407 on the Sony DD of UK Paul, and was mesmerised.
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
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It is why I posted about the Graham - it has a level and an absolute scale, no dependence at all on eye level and operator. Fiddling with a deck of cards is not my cup of tea - sorry! Perhaps some day Tang will post a movie showing him adjusting VTA with his gold cards and I will change my opinion.
Surely VTA is not voodoo - vinyl tracking is mainly physics. However we have several classes of users here - those who optimize it for every single LP and take notes on the LP jackets and those who consider that there is a single best setting for all LPs. Or even those who do it with computer instruments and a purpose test LP. A lot to talk about, IMHO.
I guess that's where we differ Francisco, I want and have to get the job done, and done right! I don't have time to talk nor do I enjoy engaging in endless theoretical discussions about things that I know are wrong. We certainly don't need to agree on any of this and everyone is free to choose for themselves but you know very well that there are many tonearms that dynamically change vtf along with vta/sra, how realistic is changing vta with every record when other parameters go out of range?
david
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Well, it is my feeling that in order to help them making a proper choice people read and participate in WBF forums. I have learned since long that in an hobby driven by preference we can never be sure something is wrong, except sometimes the objective data or some logical issues.
I respect your preferences and large experience but I feel free to debate any matters as long as they are presented in WBF. The points Tim and I were rising involved objective data on simple arm trigonometry - for me it is simple theory that can not result in endless "theoretical discussion." Fortunately it seems that most of our members have time to participate in such threads, and I think we are always happy to read from you.
BTW, I have the SME3012R and the Graham Phantom 12" side by side in my turntable and enjoy both. Before any one asks, if forced to choose just one of them I would have to ask for an extra month to make my mind ...
I like the Graham arm too! If not with cards then how do you measure the VTA on your SME?
I respect preference Francisco but this hobby is also knowledge based too and there are certain things that are factual. If not chasing one's tail becomes the hobby, some might enjoy that forever
.david
Tang, you should try the Rhodium cards. Resolution increases 0.01%!My casino friend just gave me this special gold plated deck of cards. Adjusting vta correctly is just not enough for the Asians. You have to adjust it with bling.
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Yes indeed. How many times do I almost lay my head sideways on my rack, looking at the 4 point's vta scale. For all our efforts with numerical precision we're still left with approximation.
Tang, you should try the Rhodium cards. Resolution increases 0.01%!
All metals have a signature. I prefer the one that sounds the most like nothing.
Couldn’t they simply build in a small overhang which would prevent viewing the scale from any angle bar 90 degrees?
Yes very very hard to get a good sample but is stunning very very natural not as transparent and nuanced as the new one. The shun mook arm is extremely musical it has great bloom to the sound, the new one is holographic cleaner faster without being bright or nasty a bit more on the neutral side if such a thing exists.
I like the Graham arm too! If not with cards then how do you measure the VTA on your SME?
I respect preference Francisco but this hobby is also knowledge based too and there are certain things that are factual. If not chasing one's tail becomes the hobby, some might enjoy that forever
david
Digital accurate down to 10 micrometer, David. Easily presetable for lazy people like me, and It has also shown me that the card stack can have a variation in thickness up to 100 micron depending on how you hold it - probably Tang gold cards are better than that.
Digital accurate down to 10 micrometer, David. Easily presetable for lazy people like me, and It has also shown me that the card stack can have a variation in thickness up to 100 micron depending on how you hold it - probably Tang gold cards are better than that.
as an interesting connection; my Phd in Physics Son-In-law worked for a subsidiary of Mitutoyo for 8 years; developing new products at a think tank here in the Seattle area. he traveled to Japan often to consult on these products. Mitutoyo made many products involved in making nuclear bombs, and so there were things he could not discuss with his Japanese counterparts as they did not have the appropriate US Defense Dept. clearance.
they make really fine measuring instruments.
I currently run the A820 through Doshi tape pre. Nick Doshi himself came to set up and calibrate the tape front twice. The wiring is direct from tape head to the tape pre like MikeL. I also had the ATR 102 in my system for two weeks because my dealer wanted to sell it to me.
I haven't played tape in a while...maybe 5 months. The last tape I bought was this $1,100 and I still haven't played. I have too many tapes in trash bin. Hope this one doesn't suck.
A long intro. But this is essential to make me look like a big shot in int'l audio arena.
You are going to bear with my blah blah blah, unintelligent jokes, and little substance. This is Tang.Anyway. Here is a little substance...and only within the context of my system. I find tape sounds less consistently good than vinyl. I do own many good vinyls and keep getting good vinyls to listen to. I consistently get excellent transparency, drive, reach and musical involvement from good vinyls but much less consistent with tapes. With good tape, the sound is a little sharper, image is a little more define, placement little more precise, better lightning snap and of course no surface noise. But in my opinion when music draw you in and drive you, you will no longer be picky on these tiny little check boxes. And if the music feel distant to you these check boxes are only for tape people to make supremacy and to write about in forum. Only on these check boxes does tape machine score more sonically and only in degree, not a difference of class A to class B. So I don't think the format itself tape vs vinyl make meaningful differences in top hardware set up. The real determining factors for the two formats are actually on consistency and availability of software. Consistency in term of sound quality. Availability in term of music being offered extensively.
Note: I just realized I did not answer your gear question about A820 vs my tts.
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I currently run the A820 through Doshi tape pre. Nick Doshi himself came to set up and calibrate the tape front twice. The wiring is direct from tape head to the tape pre like MikeL. I also had the ATR 102 in my system for two weeks because my dealer wanted to sell it to me.
I haven't played tape in a while...maybe 5 months. The last tape I bought was this $1,100 and I still haven't played. I have too many tapes in trash bin. Hope this one doesn't suck.
View attachment 60301
A long intro. But this is essential to make me look like a big shot in int'l audio arena.
Anyway. Here is a little substance...and only within the context of my system. I find tape sounds less consistently good than vinyl. I do own many good vinyls and keep getting good vinyls to listen to. I consistently get excellent transparency, drive, reach and musical involvement from good vinyls but much less consistent with tapes. With good tape, the sound is a little sharper, image is a little more define, placement little more precise, better lightning snap and of course no surface noise. But in my opinion when music draw you in and drive you, you will no longer be picky on these tiny little check boxes. And if the music feel distant to you these check boxes are only for tape people to make supremacy and to write about in forum. Only on these check boxes does tape machine score more sonically and only in degree, not a difference of class A to class B. So I don't think the format itself tape vs vinyl make meaningful differences in top hardware set up. The real determining factors for the two formats are actually on consistency and availability of software. Consistency in term of sound quality. Availability in term of music being offered extensively.
Note: I just realized I did not answer your gear question about A820 vs my tts.
i go hot and cold on tape too. what i try to do is only buy tapes where i can verify they are clearly preferable to my vinyl. and the title has to be musically essential. which means i'm not buying that many tapes.
and over time a certain percentage of my tapes have been passed by the vinyl as my vinyl improved. tape playback as been a constant.
knowing you Tang, you are not into returning media if it does not meet your expectations. buying grey market tapes you have to be selective. since there is no way to predict it.
at the end of the day, i do find my best tapes as essential. and no matter how good my vinyl is; there are tapes that humble it. i'm not claiming that my tape commitment makes good sense, but little of these things we do make good sense.
Wow Tang that’s very interesting about consistency
i hear so many people write, that there socks fell off when they heard RTR, I think u are the lone voice with a different view
given your RTR is properly set up it’s an interesting observation
MF POINTS out that often the original tapes were mastered knowing they were going to vinyl, and thus were not designed themselves to be listened to but took into account vinyl issues
but what of tapes made just for playback ?
i hear so many people write, that there socks fell off when they heard RTR, I think u are the lone voice with a different view
given your RTR is properly set up it’s an interesting observation
MF POINTS out that often the original tapes were mastered knowing they were going to vinyl, and thus were not designed themselves to be listened to but took into account vinyl issues
but what of tapes made just for playback ?
I currently run the A820 through Doshi tape pre. Nick Doshi himself came to set up and calibrate the tape front twice. The wiring is direct from tape head to the tape pre like MikeL. I also had the ATR 102 in my system for two weeks because my dealer wanted to sell it to me.
I haven't played tape in a while...maybe 5 months. The last tape I bought was this $1,100 and I still haven't played. I have too many tapes in trash bin. Hope this one doesn't suck.
View attachment 60301
A long intro. But this is essential to make me look like a big shot in int'l audio arena.
Anyway. Here is a little substance...and only within the context of my system. I find tape sounds less consistently good than vinyl. I do own many good vinyls and keep getting good vinyls to listen to. I consistently get excellent transparency, drive, reach and musical involvement from good vinyls but much less consistent with tapes. With good tape, the sound is a little sharper, image is a little more define, placement little more precise, better lightning snap and of course no surface noise. But in my opinion when music draw you in and drive you, you will no longer be picky on these tiny little check boxes. And if the music feel distant to you these check boxes are only for tape people to make supremacy and to write about in forum. Only on these check boxes does tape machine score more sonically and only in degree, not a difference of class A to class B. So I don't think the format itself tape vs vinyl make meaningful differences in top hardware set up. The real determining factors for the two formats are actually on consistency and availability of software. Consistency in term of sound quality. Availability in term of music being offered extensively.
Note: I just realized I did not answer your gear question about A820 vs my tts.
Thanks, your feelings about tape seem just the opposite of a typical tape lover - many people love tapes not for the tiny little check boxes, but for the overall emotional experience given by a format that approaches them closer to the essence of music.
I must say that my experience is mostly with the Tapeproject tapes and a few quality reissue tapes in friends systems. It is surely more enthusiastic than yours, although as it happens with you, due to high prices and limited availability of music I want to listen, my tape listening time is now very short.
Anyway I find that in order to evaluate formats we should pick the best recordings of each, not the poor cases. Consistency is not an issue for me, my interest on tape was mostly driven by my wish to explore the stereo formats.
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