Was MF addressing master tapes or the so called vinyl tapes, processed to take in account the physical limitations of vinyl cutting and playback? It is known that many CDs of the 80's sounded poor because the master tapes were not available and the CDs were cut from these tapes.
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
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Was MF addressing master tapes or the so called vinyl tapes, processed to take in account the physical limitations of vinyl cutting and playback? It is known that many CDs of the 80's sounded poor because the master tapes were not available and the CDs were cut from these tapes.
For what it’s worth I agree with Tang. It is absolutely NOT the case that tapes in general beat LPs in general.
Merely having a tape of a particular performance does not tell us anything. It certainly does not necessarily mean that it will sound better than the LP of the same performance.
In general I think a tape has to be of a very low generation (as in no further from the production master than a copy of a safety copy of that master) to have a reasonable chance of beating an original LP or a 45rpm reissue. And even in the best of circumstances the formats sound different; tape sounds different than vinyl, and it is perfectly legitimate for somebody to prefer the sound of vinyl.
I have a relatively small number of favorite titles across all of the musical genres I like. When I see a tape of one of those titles, I get it. I now have two or three or four different versions of tapes of some of my favorite titles.
Someday I and members here will sort through these tapes and compare the tapes of the same title and keep only the relative winners. And if the relative winner still does not beat the LP of the same title then I will toss all of the tapes of that title.
When I last did a comparison of The Doors on tape versus LP both of my tapes of that title were significantly inferior to the LP. (Of course it is possible that in that system the tape playback system was inferior to the vinyl playback system.)
My philosophy about tape is similar to MikeL’s philosophy. I have executed a very specific strategy on tape to hopefully maximize the chances of my tapes and playback system creating a higher level experience than the comparable LPs. I have no idea whether the strategy will be successful.
For those few tapes which decidedly beat the best available LPs the resulting sonic quality should be spectacular. I simply want to see if there are at least some tapes that will allow me to reach a higher level of suspension of disbelief that even the best LPs. I want to see if I can create an order of magnitude better experience with certain select tapes on a high-end tape machine.
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I have heard the tape re-issues on a couple of occasions on good systems and at shows/audio parlors of 'Waltz With Debbie' and there is no doubt in my mind that my G to VG copy Riverside vinyl at home sounds better than those high ips tapes that I heard.
I imagine the original master tapes of 'Waltz With Debbie' if they were in pristine condition sound a lot better than the vinyl, but did not come through intact in the re-issues for whatever reason. Those bootleg tape versions of DSOTM and The Wall that I have heard, though, are head and shoulders above any vinyl I have ever heard.
I believe that the best tapes will be better sounding than the comparable best vinyls, but 'best' is strictly a relative term and of course there will be many exceptions. Vinyls could simply be the best extant record of many of the original master tapes, which deteriorated over time and don't have the original machines that recorded/played them available, so the re-issues can vary widely in quality.
I have had a CD of the Sheffield Drum Record, as a lot of audiophiles do. There was a You Tube hi res version that I heard a couple of weeks ago (wish I bookmarked it) that I streamed and listened to over Airplay. It was vastly superior to the CD version. Imaging was much larger, cymbals much more subtle and spread out, the whole drum stack was dramatically located in space up and down, drums larger and tighter sounding etc. etc., just a lot better than the CD copy in every way. Even digital apparently doesn't always get that close to the masters.
I imagine the original master tapes of 'Waltz With Debbie' if they were in pristine condition sound a lot better than the vinyl, but did not come through intact in the re-issues for whatever reason. Those bootleg tape versions of DSOTM and The Wall that I have heard, though, are head and shoulders above any vinyl I have ever heard.
I believe that the best tapes will be better sounding than the comparable best vinyls, but 'best' is strictly a relative term and of course there will be many exceptions. Vinyls could simply be the best extant record of many of the original master tapes, which deteriorated over time and don't have the original machines that recorded/played them available, so the re-issues can vary widely in quality.
I have had a CD of the Sheffield Drum Record, as a lot of audiophiles do. There was a You Tube hi res version that I heard a couple of weeks ago (wish I bookmarked it) that I streamed and listened to over Airplay. It was vastly superior to the CD version. Imaging was much larger, cymbals much more subtle and spread out, the whole drum stack was dramatically located in space up and down, drums larger and tighter sounding etc. etc., just a lot better than the CD copy in every way. Even digital apparently doesn't always get that close to the masters.
Hehehe
I thought I was the only one with bad hearing. I have this tape from the Tape Project. Bought it because it is on the first tier tape ranking in Audionirvana. My expectation was very high. But sorry no ejac, not even a stiffie really. I also own a vinyl of this album.The above is just an example of what I said "inconsistency" in SQ. I am sure MikeL's has the tapes that would blow my socks off but they might not even be the music I want to listen to. Ed Pong's tapes are considered great by quite a few people in this forum including me. I have about a dozen. But guess what five of them are by my standard considered excellent. The rest are good but many vinyls I have especially from the ZerostarGeneral do sound better. On SQ I don't think that you even need the same performance same title to compare vinyl and tape if the difference is huge like A from B.
I like any format that sounds excellent and not really a vinyl only advocate. I choose vinyl because it could sound so damn good and "make sense." Tapes I first bought because I thought I would creme in my pants listening to them and use them as my sound reference. Could tape be my reference in sound? Probably if listen to them in MikeL's system with his blow the socks off software. If a digital gives me an ejac, it can also be my reference. Anything goes for me as long as it blows me away.
Back to vinyl then ( guess I will save my money on a refurbed atr 102 then hehe)
playing today [ the vinyl on this record is so heavy , must be made of ground up neutron stars]
playing today [ the vinyl on this record is so heavy , must be made of ground up neutron stars]
Nice wordingHehehe
The above is just an example of what I said "inconsistency" in SQ. I am sure MikeL's has the tapes that would blow my socks off but they might not even be the music I want to listen to. Ed Pong's tapes are considered great by quite a few people in this forum including me. I have about a dozen. But guess what five of them are by my standard considered excellent. The rest are good but many vinyls I have especially from the ZerostarGeneral do sound better. On SQ I don't think that you even need the same performance same title to compare vinyl and tape if the difference is huge like A from B.
I like any format that sounds excellent and not really a vinyl only advocate. I choose vinyl because it could sound so damn good and "make sense." Tapes I first bought because I thought I would creme in my pants listening to them and use them as my sound reference. Could tape be my reference in sound? Probably if listen to them in MikeL's system with his blow the socks off software. If a digital gives me an ejac, it can also be my reference. Anything goes for me as long as it blows me away.
I have been quite not turned on by tape as well. Even at Mike's I preferred his LPs to his tape. Tapes sound too artificial to me. Do they have more dynamics, tone, leading edge, soundstage? Yes. But there is something artificial about the recording, and sounds like an amateur band playing in your living room rather than a great performance in a concert hall. The reason for this becomes clear once you hear the General's LPs. The people in the chain who are making tape copies or creating new first generation tapes of unknown performers are a few degrees below the combination of the great performers are the great recording engineers that made the best LPs. Also there is something much more real about LP playback than playing through a Studer.
The best tapes I heard were at electric recording company where they played me the original tapes on their ortofon lyrec. Sure, if we get the original tapes of the General's LPs and play them back they might sound better as tape is a better media, but a later generation tape, or a first generation of a local cafe band performance, is just not going to sound at the same level as a good LP playback.
The best tapes I heard were at electric recording company where they played me the original tapes on their ortofon lyrec. Sure, if we get the original tapes of the General's LPs and play them back they might sound better as tape is a better media, but a later generation tape, or a first generation of a local cafe band performance, is just not going to sound at the same level as a good LP playback.
Aah, the Sheffield drum track. I was warned that it sounded bad on CD. I still thought that I must have it and my digital sounds so great on drums etc. So I looked it up. Since it's a direct to disc recording, so what did they do? They played it on a moderate turntable with a $ 200 Sure V-15 cartridge (no kidding). Then they recorded the signal in 24 bit, but what's the point with such a front end? So I said thanks, but no thanks.
Unfortunately, no great master tape as source. Upon recording they could have run one in parallel with the direct to disc cut, but apparently they didn't. Perhaps the 'hi-res' version that you heard came from better replay for the digital.
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Thanks Tang
same to you and your family also
very terrible fires here and people being burnt and dying so it’s a bit subdued here
take care
A
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If you want a great drum track on digital, buy this CD set:
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Blue-Note-Collection-1960-1962/dp/B015NBALQ8
Disc 3 of that 4 CD set has the seven minute long famous Art Blakey drum solo "Freedom Rider". Play it loud and it can blow your pants off. Just brutal dynamics if your system is up for it, the drum thwacks are so hard. All my audiophile friends love how it sounds on my system. One of them is a drummer himself and thought it sounds just incredible.
In one passage around 4:30 minutes or so there are a few drum beats that are so quick and hard that it almost makes you fear that the drum stick hits right through the speaker membrane. Fortunately, my speakers have survived thus far...
Hmm-- Maybe, Maybe not--some of the finest Musical moments I've experienced was when I used to visit Stew Hegeman and savour his Westminster Tapes -absolutely sublime!.
Very few LP sessions have matched those experiences.
BruceD
I think some master tapes also might have been generated on non standardized hot rodded tape decks that were the Frankenstein monsters of the engineers. As with all engineers, many probably thought they could improve their machines to taste in various ways.
Their tape machines were intermediaries, to record and play back the mix for cutting lacquers, not standardized playback for the target home audio playback. It's amazing that the archiving of the masters was often an afterthought. Of course, later on, retrieving and trying to play back eroding tapes on different machines would have variant results. The vinyl might be a better reflection of the original with better standardization.
Boy, you guys are starting to go retro heresy around here. Reasonably cost power cords, divesting rooms of tweaks and treatments, and now, attacking the sacred cow of tape playback. Will wonders never cease.
Their tape machines were intermediaries, to record and play back the mix for cutting lacquers, not standardized playback for the target home audio playback. It's amazing that the archiving of the masters was often an afterthought. Of course, later on, retrieving and trying to play back eroding tapes on different machines would have variant results. The vinyl might be a better reflection of the original with better standardization.
Boy, you guys are starting to go retro heresy around here. Reasonably cost power cords, divesting rooms of tweaks and treatments, and now, attacking the sacred cow of tape playback. Will wonders never cease.
Subdued? People burnt and dying, It’s been horrendous. 7 people feared dead this morning. Far out.
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