Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[the sound of Tao]

Yes, you are 100% right Marc, flooding and heat, these are the two challenges for us going ahead. Landscape design is much better at dealing with the former... water sensitive urban design is relatively high profile in the scope of current design. Much more work has to be done for fire design. I’ve been putting together new resources for developing landscapes that aim to protect life and property, it easily seems more important now than ever.

 

[spiritofmusic]

A pithy Q for you Graham. How do you feel about this hobby? Like all of capitalism, it is predicated on growth and people buying things. Tube amps, power hungry spkrs, even the vast energy expended to power Tidal, audiophilia doesn't sit well w how you feel right now, surely.

Ironically, all those command economies that could easily move to zero carbon ie China, Russia, Iran etc are worse emitters pound for pound than most Western nations.

How do you even go fwd?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Everyone in Australia all the best.
First of all i think good vinyl can sound amazing with much more music choice.
Secondly i bought my studer B62 from a amateur recording guy who made his own tapes.
I hear things in those recordings that make me say tape is the best.
Are these mastertapes ? Yes.
Differences:
Dynamics and purity of tone.
Especially in piano being played .
Does it have some added noise? Yes also infortunately

 

[spiritofmusic]

This is my experience exactly.

Tape can often have more dynamic expression, leading edge as you explain. However, I have found a run of fine grain or sameness to the sound that I am especially sensitive to. This is with a deHavilland repro. Someone locally who has a substantial tape collection.. many hundreds of tapes and dozens of machines including big Studers says the coveted tube repro that many consider top of the line does not float his boat at all and he sold it for the deHavilland.... so go figure.

I get more finesse and detail ( not artificial brightness) out of my optimized phono chain. With some albums dynamic expression is greater than tape as well. The LP format is not limited if engineered optimally.

If you're into the format and the chase for the software that is closest to the performance then I totally get it. Otherwise, if you've optimized your phono, like most here have done to the SOTA, then I think tape can be easily challenged. On the software front, tape makes absolutely no sense for expense or selection- this is a real deterrent for me.

OTOH, if you get a fully done Studer say 807, 810 + a repro and a good linestage you probably have far less invested than most of us here on than a vinyl front end . Its the software that becomes to limiting at that point.


YMMV

I remember when for 5 mins I was seriously considering tape, I got an email from a guy in the industry who's been there and done that for decades.

His message was that tape divided into 3 categories.

All out mind melting epiphany from maybe a maximum of a third of titles. SQ to make you forget the medium, right there w the musicians. No vinyl can come close.

The next third very very good, but more a variation on what you can get from a top tt setup. So, great SQ, but not one to throw the tt out for.

Final third often quite poor, or at best average and unengaging, deflating any expectation bias. Vinyl 99.999% likely to be way better.

The ironic thing is, what you surmised would be a great tape eg 50s 60s jazz or vocals could easily be in the poor category on tape. 80s pop and rock, overproduced and dense, often in the top category, defying logic.

And NO way of telling Lol.

Seems like a crapshoot. Of the two or three suppliers who sent me lists of $400-$800 tapes, there were up to 200 much loved albums I would have killed for if I could be guaranteed they'd 90% sound stellar.

But to spend $30k+, and only possibly predict $10k worth would blow my brain, $10k would be great but not much better than my existing vinyl, and the remaining $10k poor, I judged that if I went this route, I was wayyyy too rich for my own good Lol.

 

[Solypsa]

So, no wonder they sound poor in a common tape recorder - they are mastered for a vinyl chain, including cutter and pressing processes...

If a mastering studio printed a tape for the vinyl transfer that sounds poor there is a very high probability that the resulting vinyl sounds poor too. It takes skill to make a great vinyl transfer and often the mastering process requires some subtle* alterations to both allow the transfer to be successful and to bring out the best possible sq from the medium. On the other hand releases done without regard for quality or done in great quantity could have master tapes printed with a heavy hand towards 'easy to transfer'. Example: Some records were made from multiple masters produced on multiple lathes slaved together. Cutting a master is far from a 'press play and leave the room' scenario so the tape master may have been printed with the aforementioned heavy hand. (the engineer running these must have been an acrobat!). On the other hand we have these cherished LP's of the sort that the General curates. They came to be because a decision was made to make them excellent and that decision guided the entire capture and print process. I've not had the experience of listening to a master tape of one of these momentous sessions but my experience in the studio tells me those tapes would sound fantastic as does the resulting vinyl.

All this leads me to believe that the tape vs vinyl discussion at hand is about the relative ease of finding good vinyl vs good tape and not really a discussion of the merits of the format. (and yes there can be a somewhat different topic about direct to disk or even digital vs analog captures)

*yes some recordings require strong manipulation to transfer to vinyl but this mostly pertains to digital recordings of electronic music that contain distortion, phase and or bass weirdness not generally seen in analog recordings.

 

[cjfrbw]

I remember when for 5 mins I was seriously considering tape, I got an email from a guy in the industry who's been there and done that for decades.

His message was that tape divided into 3 categories.

All out mind melting epiphany from maybe a maximum of a third of titles. SQ to make you forget the medium, right there w the musicians. No vinyl can come close.

The next third very very good, but more a variation on what you can get from a top tt setup. So, great SQ, but not one to throw the tt out for.

Final third often quite poor, or at best average and unengaging, deflating any expectation bias. Vinyl 99.999% likely to be way better.

The ironic thing is, what you surmised would be a great tape eg 50s 60s jazz or vocals could easily be in the poor category on tape. 80s pop and rock, overproduced and dense, often in the top category, defying logic.

Seems like a crapshoot.

I would agree with this. Great tape can be the best of the best, vinyl be damned. But, not all tapes are great or even good.

However, the RUNNING AVERAGE of vinyl is better than tape over a much larger library and variety of consumables.

Cost and convenience factor of vinyl are also better, unless you are intent on rarities and pedigrees. Great vinyl is so good, that it is fine to listen to the 'great tapes' once in a while as a reference or a treat, but not essential if you have great records to listen to.

Great tape is a luxury within a luxury.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . All out mind melting epiphany from maybe a maximum of a third of titles. SQ to make you forget the medium, right there w the musicians. No vinyl can come close.

. . .

Different audiophiles apply different analyses. If anywhere near a third of my tape titles satisfy your first category I will be beyond ecstatic.

My nominal goal is much more limited. If I find that even five or 10 of my favorite titles satisfy your first category I will consider my tape effort, time and expense more than worth it.

If even five or 10 of my favorite titles on tape beat vinyl and achieve the high-end audio Holy Grail of SOTA musical bliss I will be very happy.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, we're talking on average $800 per title (vast majority of albums needing two reels). For my part it would be totally unjustifiable to spend $40-50k on five dozen 2-reel tapes that are decidedly worse than my lp's.

As I said, if the vast majority of tapes (95%) were absolutely better than lp, epiphany quality, and one had the funds, then there's a debate to be had. Or certainly if the tapes could be bought on sale/return, on approval.

But this isn't the case. Ron, the 200 albums I could have on tape are absolute faves of mine, but to spend these funds with the risk that a third are poor is unjustifiable for me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

A pithy Q for you Graham. How do you feel about this hobby? Like all of capitalism, it is predicated on growth and people buying things. Tube amps, power hungry spkrs, even the vast energy expended to power Tidal, audiophilia doesn't sit well w how you feel right now, surely.

Ironically, all those command economies that could easily move to zero carbon ie China, Russia, Iran etc are worse emitters pound for pound than most Western nations.

How do you even go fwd?

Part of me would like to say that’s why I’ve gone for high efficiency horns with SET but that might not be completely true. Certainly playing music keeps me out of the bars and off the streets. Well mostly.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, we're talking on average $800 per title (vast majority of albums needing two reels). For my part it would be totally unjustifiable to spend $40-50k on five dozen 2-reel tapes that are decidedly worse than my lp's.

As I said, if the vast majority of tapes (95%) were absolutely better than lp, epiphany quality, and one had the funds, then there's a debate to be had. Or certainly if the tapes could be bought on sale/return, on approval.

But this isn't the case. Ron, the 200 albums I could have on tape are absolute faves of mine, but to spend these funds with the risk that a third are poor is unjustifiable for me.

“Different audiophiles apply different analyses.”

 

[cjfrbw]

I have one of the great tape experts and collector Astrotoy a hop and a skip from my home in the East Bay, and I have never darkened his audio parlor for a listen. It's like living a few miles from the General in London and never visiting his cornucopia.

I did greatly enjoy Astrotoy's exposition and demo recently at the California Audio Show 2019 with Doshi, however. That was really cool.

 

[microstrip]

my tape is better now since i have my meters and adjustments on the King Cello.

but my vinyl is better too.

and i think one has to spend time listening to tape a bit to wrap your head around what it's doing. if i commit to a tape binge, where it's at least a few hours, even on multiple consecutive days, then not only do i hear deeper, but the big Studers wake up a bit and sound much better.

mostly the Studers lay dormant; then get fired up and i play a tape or two.

Anyway, the main point is that some people are using the classic arguments of performance , recording technique and mastering to avoid a clear opinion on tape versus LP as a media. Plenty of if's, but the love for tape sound quality evidenced in many posts in WBF not long ago seems to be almost vanished ...

Please note that my original question to Tang only involved the sound quality and preference, not the performance.

 

[awsmone]

Well I got up this morning and the smoke meant I couldn’t see past my neighbours house
i went down to the music room and it smelt strongly of burnt wood
this is slowly actually getting worse over the weeks

the people and firemen killed and others seriously burnt it’s like a Hollywood drama, but there is no upside other than the community spirit which is amazing

one of the fireman was an expectant father killed by a freak wind gust which overturned his eight ton truck !

i feel so sad for his young family

 

[awsmone]

Anyway, the main point is that some people are using the classic arguments of performance , recording technique and mastering to avoid a clear opinion on tape versus LP as a media. Plenty of if's, but the love for tape sound quality evidenced in many posts in WBF not long ago seems to be almost vanished ...

Please note that my original question to Tang only involved the sound quality and preference, not the performance.

I think those are good points, I guess the surprise for me is the non universality of tapes superiority, and yes this relates to utility issues ie mastering provenance etc

MF has often said tape isn’t necessarily superior because of these related issues

i agree if we could free ourselves from these other issues it would be interesting to know

but as Marc has pointed out the sheer cost per great album, and limited supply of titles makes it impractical for many of us, but this doesn’t mean that for others the equation is different and I salute their bravery I admit I love RTR machines but when I left Perth I left my three RTR to a friend , but I think still have some Jazz live master tapes in the garage but haven’t checked in them in 6 years oops

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Anyway, the main point is that some people are using the classic arguments of performance , recording technique and mastering to avoid a clear opinion on tape versus LP as a media. Plenty of if's, but the love for tape sound quality evidenced in many posts in WBF not long ago seems to be almost vanished ...

Please note that my original question to Tang only involved the sound quality and preference, not the performance.

not vanished at all.....it moved, along with some members, to audionirvana. where tape is simply viewed differently than here. that site is more tape centric. lot's of tape talk and tape love.

no right or wrong to it......it just is.

not that there is no tape talk here, more that our vinyl focus sucks the energy back from tape focus. not suggesting anything wrong or broken. we can't force it.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Well I got up this morning and the smoke meant I couldn’t see past my neighbours house
i went down to the music room and it smelt strongly of burnt wood
this is slowly actually getting worse over the weeks

the people and firemen killed and others seriously burnt it’s like a Hollywood drama, but there is no upside other than the community spirit which is amazing

one of the fireman was an expectant father killed by a freak wind gust which overturned his eight ton truck !

i feel so sad for his young family

The news called it a fire tornado when it overturned his fire truck... people giving their lives saving others, heroic is the only word that seems to fit.

My nephew went up to their farm at Taree where the fires went through weeks ago and said that there are still live embers in the soil profile. The dams and the creek are dry so there’s no options to reestablish vegetation for some time and the erosion and soil loss are just on another scale.

 

[Folsom]

I was just at concert of Beethoven's 9th, conducted by Morihiko Nakahara . It was wonderful. He made me like some Beethoven, it didn't sound like the 9th I normally hear. The instruments lead into eachother and had more middle meat than attack/decay, and it made great subtlety to certain parts that were really pretty.

Funny to note, after it they did another song at the end for people to sing along to. With his unique style I couldn't understand the words but I know the song... it was nice, I just couldn't make out any of the words (and I know the song, name escapes me atm).

It's amazing how much our stereos don't sound like the live thing.

 

[awsmone]

I was just at concert of Beethoven's 9th, conducted by Morihiko Nakahara . It was wonderful. He made me like some Beethoven, it didn't sound like the 9th I normally hear. The instruments lead into eachother and had more middle meat than attack/decay, and it made great subtlety to certain parts that were really pretty.

Funny to note, after it they did another song at the end for people to sing along to. With his unique style I couldn't understand the words but I know the song... it was nice, I just couldn't make out any of the words (and I know the song, name escapes me atm).

It's amazing how much our stereos don't sound like the live thing.

Glad u enjoyed it
i always like the third movement

try Carlos Klieber 5th and 7th on DG very impressive interpretations though won’t claim the best sonic
if u don’t already have them

https://www.npr.org/2011/07/18/100890536/beethovens-best-the-ultimate-5th-symphony

in the other hand the the transition from the third to forth movement in the fifth symphony is such uplifting genius

the 7th has been described as the apotheosis of the dance

I always think the 9th is a wonderful crazy mess with a big finish lol

 

[Tango]

Anyway, the main point is that some people are using the classic arguments of performance , recording technique and mastering to avoid a clear opinion on tape versus LP as a media. Plenty of if's, but the love for tape sound quality evidenced in many posts in WBF not long ago seems to be almost vanished ...

Please note that my original question to Tang only involved the sound quality and preference, not the performance.

And what I responded was what I heard in my system with softwares and gears I owned and my logic choosing why I don't invest more in tape gears. By no mean I stated or implied that sound reproduced by tape machine is inferior to one reproduced by tt in general and if software involved is first grade. I could only say that given gears and softwares available to me at hands the difference in sound of vinyl vs tape is not significant. Therefore I chose to put my resource on vinyl base on what "make sense" to me.

Tang

 

[Lagonda]

Part of me would like to say that’s why I’ve gone for high efficiency horns with SET but that might not be completely true. Certainly playing music keeps me out of the bars and off the streets. Well mostly.

The more i sit at home and listen
to my high power consuming
stereo, the less I shower. Heating
water for showers is very power
consuming, ergo it becomes a null
sum exercise