Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, Tang reacts very angrily when asked to do due diligence, the way he did that day when I asked him to try a couple of changes

if he has a head switch, then this is much easier than switching carts......it's just moving a set of interconnects. if he does not have a head switch, then he can't try it. i'm guessing he might want to know this answer (in the context of he system evolution) even if he does not share the results.

tape output devices are no different than phono stages, they all sound different.

 

[Tango]

Dear Tang,

do you have the ability to play the A-820 out of the stock outputs? (have a head switch?) not saying you would prefer listening to that......however; as far as a video portraying leading edge detail it might come through more clearly through the stock outputs compared to the Doshi and level the playing field on detail portrayal.

and if, by chance, that actually happens (this is a shot in the dark), then consider acquiring the Studer 'trafo-less' (transformerless) analog output cards which does kick up the refinement a degree or two when using the stock output.....if you don't already have them.

cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I used to have a switchable function to either use stock phono card or head out to external phono. But then I went direct from tape head to Doshi input and made the shortest path. When I played with stock card, it did has a little bit better leading edge but it sounded a little too flat to my liking. I am not talking stage or layering. I am talking a little flat of the sound of an instrument. The Doshi is coloring the sound and make the sound more organic. (I actually don't want to say this because it will give that Indian guy satisfaction. ) But at the price of some transparency, sharpness and leading edge detail. I even changed Doshi tubes to the very expensive NOS Tele that are well known for more details and better soundstaging. I have also tried living with the ATR 102 twice on two different occasions each for a period of 1 week. One of the ATR 102 I tried was even a customized one. I can conservatively say that in the areas of what we talking here my vinyl front could still outperform them most of the times. I have not doubt in my mind that optimized playback tape machine with proper dupe master tape will sound better than vinyl. But the problem is not all people can get access to people who can provide both. What we hear from this AlDiMeola tape could be just because of the tape itself not the Studer or the Doshi. I know the tape was definitely a copy from a person who has access to the Master but I don't know how he duped them. At one point I was thinking of buying the Ballfinger. I heard it next to the Bernie Grundman customized ATR and the sound was great. I liked it better than that ATR. That was just to my ears of course. But then I thought of the limited availability and limited access to excellent properly recorded tapes for play back, I just scrapped my plan.

If I have a chance to get the straffo less card I will try as you recommended.

Mike. Regarding Ked's comment on doing due diligence, I believe you know only full well how it feels when tons of suggestions were pouring on you.

Bests,
Tang

 

[ddk]

To add to this conversation, the original LP is sonically far superior to the reissue which I find flat, dead and boring in comparison and if that’s what’s winning the match then the tape copy must be horrible.

david

 

[microstrip]

The tape seems more homogenized, the vinyl more nuanced, I would have expected more detail on the tape. The range with vinyl is higher. I suspect the Doshi is coloring the tape stage.(...)

IMHO the tape machine is poorly calibrated and probably needs head alignment. The equalization of the recordings (or just the microphone position) seems different, but most of it the tape abruptly lacks high frequencies above 7 kHz. (tape on top) . I can see why Tang easily prefers the vinyl. Apparently comparing rotten apples with oranges ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Very interesting, helpful and easy-to-see analysis, Francisco!

(Perhaps could the Doshi somehow not be set up properly to play this particular tape? There are the tape complexities of what equalization was mapped to the master recording, and what is the EQ of the dubbed copy, and is the playback pre-amp consonant with that equalization? I know the current Doshi has a lot of adjustments. I have come to understand that there are a lot of ways to mess up tape playback, in addition to improper machine calibration.)

PS: A friend forced me in Munich to buy an original copy of this LP.

 

[Tango]

IMHO the tape machine is poorly calibrated and probably needs head alignment. The equalization of the recordings (or just the microphone position) seems different, but most of it the tape abruptly lacks high frequencies above 7 kHz. (tape on top) . I can see why Tang easily prefers the vinyl. Apparently comparing rotten apples with oranges ...

View attachment 60539

Rotten apples they are as you said. The other ATRs were also rotten too. Maybe I need to buy the Ballfinger just to ....

The position of recorder was exactly the same.

Thank you for the frequency reading. It brings tangibility to the discussion.

Tang

 

[microstrip]

Very interesting, helpful and easy-to-see analysis, Francisco!

(Perhaps could the Doshi somehow not be set up properly to play this particular tape? There are the tape complexities of what equalization was mapped to the master recording, and what is the EQ of the dubbed copy, and is the playback pre-amp consonant with that equalization? I know the current Doshi has a lot of adjustments.)

PS: A friend forced me in Munich to buy an original copy of this LP.

It is hard to say, but my first bet is head azimuth misalignment - I do not dare to suggest dirty heads! Half a degree misalignment completely kills any thing above 6 KHz.

The differences between IEC and NAB equalization could not justify this huge difference.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Maybe I need to buy the Ballfinger just to .... (...)

IMHO all you need is a MRL calibration tape ...
http://www.mrltapes.com/

 

[Ron Resnick]

Are some master tapes recorded with the RIAA curve?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good analysis micro.
At least i did hear differences in the highs ,lol.
I d say go with the ballfinger , an old car is still an old car lol.
Time and fabrication processes move forward as well

 

[NorthStar]

Tang, thank you for that music comparison you played and recorded and shared with us through YouTube.

* I can only comment from my listening device and my ears ...
The tape video sounded more ambient, with much more delivering the character of the venue where and when that music concert was taking place and recorded. The reverberations of the hall's soundstage wood floor and walls had more vitamins than the more subdued vinyl record.

The overall sound recording of that first music video has much more expanded presence, vigour, more representative of live music.

That's my overall view (ears) here in the comfort of home.
I didn't take measurements (decibel levels), I wasn't looking for perfect cart adjustment, or tape azimuth calibration. I was only listening to what you provided in simplicity and love of the music playing.

You inspired me to get the album and give it a spin; it's the perfect time today this morning of January 8 of the year 2020. Because music matters, and even more so in the now.

 

[Folsom]

They both sound kind of hifi-ish to me. But the tape I want to turn off. I bet I could make a better tape pre than whatever that is...

But I can't correct recordings. I'm sure the original LP is the way to go.

 

[Tango]

* I can only comment from my listening device and my ears ...
The tape video sounded more ambient, with much more delivering the character of the venue where and when that music concert was taking place and recorded. The reverberations of the hall's soundstage wood floor and walls had more vitamins than the more subdued vinyl record.

You described this as I would described it Bob. One thing with me is I let people hear things themself. They can criticize however they please. Personally I careless about highs people are talking about. A cello playing low can sound exceptional when you hear with clarity. It is the transparency and clarity that did not do it for me. My vinyl is not an original pressing I cannot say if the original pressing can do better ambient.

I am glad you enjoy the music.

Tang

 

[NorthStar]

You described this as I would described it Bob. One thing with me is I let people hear things themself. They can criticize however they please. Personally I careless about highs people are talking about. A cello playing low can sound exceptional when you hear with clarity. It is the transparency and clarity that did not do it for me. My vinyl is not an original pressing I cannot say if the original pressing can do better ambient.

I am glad you enjoy the music.

Tang

I always enjoy your music recordings; I share most of them with my family and professional friends musicians.

{I hear it and tell it like it is, in the moment.}

And exactly like you I let them live with it.
Tomorrow's another day ...

 

[kodomo]

If you do not have one, please get an mrl calibration tape, there seems there is a problem with treble. I can not comment about the bass as you are missing about 2 octaves of that in your system too.

This also was a good example to show the importance of provenance of the tapes I guess. I mean very good professionals make the transfer to vinyl whereas we do not know how the tape transfer was done and what generation it is unless from a reliable official vendor.
If I were you I would definitely listen to the vinyl version of this album.

 

[Tango]

Thank you for all suggestions.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Are some master tapes recorded with the RIAA curve?

some were prepared for LP cutting yes

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

hi T
since A810/812 and 820 uses same audioboards, you should consider buying a set of MTSL modded boards from Todor Dimitrov of Mastertapesoundlab
I have theese in my A810 and the difference to stock is HUGE and approaching my all outed MTSL A80RCs...
several other Norwegian friends have same experience with A810...in A820 it should be even more obvious.
while you´re at it upgrade the headblock preamp as well
best
Leif

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It is hard to say, but my first bet is head azimuth misalignment - I do not dare to suggest dirty heads! Half a degree misalignment completely kills any thing above 6 KHz.

The differences between IEC and NAB equalization could not justify this huge difference.

recently i received my upgraded King Cello with meters and pots for adjustments. my friend Andrew assisted me (i watched him) in making the calibration adjustments. we did make use of the meters, but only as a back up to the Audio Precision One tool. we had a 'fresh' MRL tape for both 1/4" (IEC and NAB) and 1/2" (IEC and NAB). we were able to get it within .5 db across (when we did the sweep) except in the bass where it was within 1.5db.

the settings differences for IEC and NAB were minimal when not zero differences.

we did check head azimuth but it was right on for those calibration tapes.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I had the pleasure of meeting Charles King at the European Triode Festival in Normandie in november and we had a long cheerful and interesting talk about tape etc into the early hours...
certainly a very experienced and charming old boy with a glimpse in his eyes