Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?

[skinnyfla]

since you are in Germany, it makes sense to stay with Brinkman, and if you want a linear tracker try the pivoted one from Schroeder first. He might even come and set it up for you two years later, on when you visit him tell him how to set it up.

Germany has a lot of designers. There is no reason to cross the borders, far less the continents unless you purely curious and want to try everything

Hey, thanx again and yes, that may indeed also be an option, to stay with Brinkmann, keep the tonearm and Rönt ii powersupply and just upgrade from LaGrange to Balance 2022.

Anyways, it`s not like I`m going to rush away next week and buy a new TT for 40k based on suggestions. What I will do is take my time, listen to my original options, add some of the mentioned TTs here to my list and then make a decision in the next few months.

For that, I am very thankful for the support, shared information and conversation in this forum - it makes a hobby more enjoyable and brings up options, that were simply not n my agenda before.

I`ll make visits to Thomas Schick and Schröder, try to audition CS Port, listen to my original options and in the time between, enjoy records with what I already have - and my Brinkmann ist far from bad or unenjoyable, so there`s plenty of time

I think that`s a pretty comfortable starting point for my next "project" - and anyways, I think it is important to do this with a positiv mindset and be more happy with what you have, whilst looking for/working on options of further improvement, rather than being at a constent state of unrest because you want bigger...

 

[Lagonda]

Alternative if you need a good one.dcx 22l from maxon View attachment 124626

Is that model for a electrical toothbrush ?

 

[skinnyfla]

… say, what are the thoughts on searching for an old Micro Seiki… like an 8000 or so… is that worth putting effort into?

 

[Solypsa]

So far 8000 level Micro's really hold value, a nice bonus if it ends up sounding good to you

Not sure if will be far ahead of the Melco already discussed...

 

[bonzo75]

… say, what are the thoughts on searching for an old Micro Seiki… like an 8000 or so… is that worth putting effort into?

No - there are many good TTs today. Why do you want to put a premium into a rare piece, even if it is good, that might not turn up in good condition, you won't even know - maybe your seller does not even know - and if something happens, you might struggle to fix.

In vintage, a restored TD 124 and Garrard makes very good sense because of the value/low price and the amount of samples available. It is difficult to beat their sonics for the price. MS 8000 has too much of a rarity premium built in that it is pointless. Ask Shakti, he had it for a while.

 

[skinnyfla]

No - there are many good TTs today. Why do you want to put a premium into a rare piece, even if it is good, that might not turn up in good condition, you won't even know - maybe your seller does not even know - and if something happens, you might struggle to fix.

In vintage, a restored TD 124 and Garrard makes very good sense because of the value/low price and the amount of samples available. It is difficult to beat their sonics for the price. MS 8000 has too much of a rarity premium built in that it is pointless. Ask Shakti, he had it for a while.

… true - they are 40+ years old…

 

[Another Johnson]

Early in my career in acoustics and vibrations, I was corporate specialist for vibration analysis for a gigantic technology driven company. I spent a fair amount of time collecting acoustic and vibration data in the field for later analysis in the lab.

My education led me to prefer the idea of direct drive, but as my experience grew, I realized that the Nagra field recorder, which was a belt drive, was the best field recording device for my purposes.

Later, as a professor developing laboratory courses to teach upper level and graduate level engineering students about acoustic and vibration measurements, I had no debate with myself or colleagues… the belt drive Nagra was the best in the lab.

Later still, tape as a field data collection medium was eclipsed by digital. Eventually, with the availability of portable FFT machines, it wasn’t even necessary to bring data back to the lab. Data could be evaluated in situ.

Nevertheless , I’ve had many belt, direct, and rim drive TTs in my home system. From the reports of users there are many excellent designs. Closed loop vs open loop speed control has been debated ad nauseam for decades. I’ve always judged these by how they sound to ME. I’ve tended toward preferring belt drives. I’m less interested in reading about theories of what’s best. A high quality machine that’s set up properly will generally sound pretty darn good.

My listening has been on a piano jag of late. I listen to live grand piano every week. It is hard to really perfectly reproduce a piano in a home system. Part of this is due to the difficulty of capturing the live sound.

But is is rare for me to be disappointed in piano sound at home. The performance is the overwhelming distinguishing feature for me.

 

[morricab]

Early in my career in acoustics and vibrations, I was corporate specialist for vibration analysis for a gigantic technology driven company. I spent a fair amount of time collecting acoustic and vibration data in the field for later analysis in the lab.

My education led me to prefer the idea of direct drive, but as my experience grew, I realized that the Nagra field recorder, which was a belt drive, was the best field recording device for my purposes.

Later, as a professor developing laboratory courses to teach upper level and graduate level engineering students about acoustic and vibration measurements, I had no debate with myself or colleagues… the belt drive Nagra was the best in the lab.

Later still, tape as a field data collection medium was eclipsed by digital. Eventually, with the availability of portable FFT machines, it wasn’t even necessary to bring data back to the lab. Data could be evaluated in situ.

Nevertheless , I’ve had many belt, direct, and rim drive TTs in my home system. From the reports of users there are many excellent designs. Closed loop vs open loop speed control has been debated ad nauseam for decades. I’ve always judged these by how they sound to ME. I’ve tended toward preferring belt drives. I’m less interested in reading about theories of what’s best. A high quality machine that’s set up properly will generally sound pretty darn good.

My listening has been on a piano jag of late. I listen to live grand piano every week. It is hard to really perfectly reproduce a piano in a home system. Part of this is due to the difficulty of capturing the live sound.

But is is rare for me to be disappointed in piano sound at home. The performance is the overwhelming distinguishing feature for me.

And what is your TT of choice as of now?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Skinnyfla, if you're anywhere near to Norfolk, you're very welcome to visit me to hear a well executed rim drive based TT. I'm not sure it would directly help in your decision making, but it would be a data point in any choice you make.
Having heard a few really well setup TTs, I gravitate twds idler/rim and DD.

 

[Another Johnson]

And what is your TT of choice as of now?

I have three in regular use. A high spec LP12 (Klimax, short of latest Radikal upgrade, with Lyra Etna Lambda instead of Linn’s cartridge, and with an ARC Ref Phono 3SE, having sold off the Linn phono section) an upgraded Clearaudio Master Reference with Universal 12 and TT2, and a Dual 1009 for 16s and 78s.
But what I have chosen really isn’t important to someone else.
I may do a pictorial write up of the Master Reference at some point. It is really quite cleverly designed, and I’ve seen pictures of several that have been buggared up in assembly or installation. A common error is to allow the motor pods tripod to touch the platter/arms tripod. Another is to allow the two tripods to communicate through the slab they’re mounted on. An awful lot of what’s wrong with many TTs is the fault of the user.

Edit added on 2/5/24 :
For those that may not know, my Linn is a stock model except for the cartridge and phono stage. This model has a Swiss Maxon DC motor, a flat belt, and it uses once per rev optical feedback in a closed loop controller. As I understand it, the comparator is based on an internal clock that Linn developed to mitigate jitter in their digital line. It is switchable between 33 and 45 at the touch of the button. And illuminating the speed checker disk with a 300 Hz strobe, the image is completely stable with dark, crisp lines.

My Clearaudio Master Reference has been upgraded to the later opaque platter and ceramic/magnetic bearing. It runs with three 1 mm diameter belts. The belts are symmetric and each is driven by its own motor pod. They are controlled by one synchronized external controller/power supply. There is no closed loop between the motor controller and the platter. Again, speed checker disk and 300 Hz strobe give a rock stable, dark, crisp image.
The Clearaudio relies on the proper, no contact set up of the three motors and the platter/arm assembly. I’ve seen pictures where the motor tripod actually makes contact with the platter/arms assembly tripod. It is also important to break the path from one tripod to the other on the underlying support.

One other issue for the Universal tonearms, the English version of the manual gives no guidance on how the pillar position affects the antiskating force. The antiskate is cleverly done with magnets. But aligning them so that the antiskate is zero at the lead in groove is necessary, and yet not discussed, at least not in my manual. I discovered this independently during set up.

 

[PeterA]

No - there are many good TTs today. Why do you want to put a premium into a rare piece, even if it is good, that might not turn up in good condition, you won't even know - maybe your seller does not even know - and if something happens, you might struggle to fix.

In vintage, a restored TD 124 and Garrard makes very good sense because of the value/low price and the amount of samples available. It is difficult to beat their sonics for the price. MS 8000 has too much of a rarity premium built in that it is pointless. Ask Shakti, he had it for a while.

"Even if it is good". That is pretty funny.

I have a different experience having owned one and setting up a great friend's SX 8000II last month. Both were found through David Karmeli's contacts. Both samples are mint. Superb sonics and function flawlessly. The key is knowing the source. In this case ddk stands behind them. Not saying he will sell you one, and skinnyfla is not local so there may be better options for other tables. Those with whom I have spoken who have compared them to the TD 124 and Garrards have all told me the Micro is the much better table, sound wise. You just have to find a good one. If you want to save money and get a lovely wood plinth on your Garrard, that is fine too.

 

[tima]

The question in both cases audibility of the effect of the correction being applied. If we both agree that the speed the record is being played is literally half of the encoded information, then you are introducing constant fluctuations in pitch on the microsecond time scale…a form of analog jitter.

That can be imagined, but in reality it does not happen. There is stability in constancy. Speed is monitored over 150,000 times per second and correction may happen once per side.

 

[bonzo75]

"Even if it is good". That is pretty funny.

I have a different experience having owned one and setting up a great friend's SX 8000II last month. Both were found through David Karmeli's contacts. Both samples are mint. Superb sonics and function flawlessly. The key is knowing the source. In this case ddk stands behind them. Not saying he will sell you one, and skinnyfla is not local so there may be better options for other tables. Those with whom I have spoken who have compared them to the TD 124 and Garrards have all told me the Micro is the much better table, sound wise. You just have to find a good one. If you want to save money and get a lovely wood plinth on your Garrard, that is fine too.

sorry at no point I said 124 or Garrard is better than the MS 8000. I said they have very good value. I just don’t think MS 8000 does. If it was 5k or even 10k sure.

 

[abeidrov]

Why would you get Micro Seiki if you can get Techdas IIIP? Is it not the same design and at the same level sound wise? Or is it much cheaper than Techdas?

 

[bonzo75]

Why would you get Micro Seiki if you can get Techdas IIIP? Is it not the same design and at the same level sound wise? Or is it much cheaper than Techdas?

8000 is not much cheaper than Techdas - 8000 mk2 is quite expensive, and AF3p with discounts will similar price. the price of 8000 mk2 asking fluctuates, depending on condition etc. Peter might know how much David charges.

Regarding sound wise, that is subjective. You will not find people on forum agreeing that AF3p is worth the price either. But yes I would take AF3p between the two if I had the choice, simply because of proven reliability it is quite good and proven with different arms of rather than 3012r only

I would take the Brinkmann Balance over both, again very reliable,great service record, long track history, easily available used or dealer, great sound, and then voice it with your choice of arm and cartridge. I would put the Dava on for sure, and have to check how red sparrow does with Schroder LT it might be then an ideal option. If you find it used, it is a bargain and reliable. Or if you want a DD pick your Monaco or Primary Control

Plus visiting Schick, Schroder, Mayer and other German designers will give skinnyfla some insights into optimizing the signal path for analog - so he might even end up with a completely different signal path to what he has now, that could require lower priced analog set up.

I have even seen an AF2 go at the EUR 25ish k mark

 

[DasguteOhr]

"Even if it is good". That is pretty funny.

I have a different experience having owned one and setting up a great friend's SX 8000II last month. Both were found through David Karmeli's contacts. Both samples are mint. Superb sonics and function flawlessly. The key is knowing the source. In this case ddk stands behind them. Not saying he will sell you one, and skinnyfla is not local so there may be better options for other tables. Those with whom I have spoken who have compared them to the TD 124 and Garrards have all told me the Micro is the much better table, sound wise. You just have to find a good one. If you want to save money and get a lovely wood plinth on your Garrard, that is fine too.

The good thing about the 8000 is that it does not have an IC chip in the motor unit, which is what some other Micro Seki models do when it breaks. difficult to impossible to repair. Nevertheless, changing capacitors is mandatory.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Is that model for a electrical toothbrush ?

When your toothbrush 80mm diameter have, and you green, big and your name hulk is,maybe .
dx22 his means a 22 mm thick drive shaft, the thing drives a 100kg platter without any problems.

 

[mtemur]

Early in my career in acoustics and vibrations, I was corporate specialist for vibration analysis for a gigantic technology driven company. I spent a fair amount of time collecting acoustic and vibration data in the field for later analysis in the lab.

My education led me to prefer the idea of direct drive, but as my experience grew, I realized that the Nagra field recorder, which was a belt drive, was the best field recording device for my purposes.

Later, as a professor developing laboratory courses to teach upper level and graduate level engineering students about acoustic and vibration measurements, I had no debate with myself or colleagues… the belt drive Nagra was the best in the lab.

Later still, tape as a field data collection medium was eclipsed by digital. Eventually, with the availability of portable FFT machines, it wasn’t even necessary to bring data back to the lab. Data could be evaluated in situ.

Nevertheless , I’ve had many belt, direct, and rim drive TTs in my home system. From the reports of users there are many excellent designs. Closed loop vs open loop speed control has been debated ad nauseam for decades. I’ve always judged these by how they sound to ME. I’ve tended toward preferring belt drives. I’m less interested in reading about theories of what’s best. A high quality machine that’s set up properly will generally sound pretty darn good.

My listening has been on a piano jag of late. I listen to live grand piano every week. It is hard to really perfectly reproduce a piano in a home system. Part of this is due to the difficulty of capturing the live sound.

But is is rare for me to be disappointed in piano sound at home. The performance is the overwhelming distinguishing feature for me.

Excellent post.

 

[morricab]

8000 is not much cheaper than Techdas - 8000 mk2 is quite expensive, and AF3p with discounts will similar price. the price of 8000 mk2 asking fluctuates, depending on condition etc. Peter might know how much David charges.

Regarding sound wise, that is subjective. You will not find people on forum agreeing that AF3p is worth the price either. But yes I would take AF3p between the two if I had the choice, simply because of proven reliability it is quite good and proven with different arms of rather than 3012r only

I would take the Brinkmann Balance over both, again very reliable,great service record, long track history, easily available used or dealer, great sound, and then voice it with your choice of arm and cartridge. I would put the Dava on for sure, and have to check how red sparrow does with Schroder LT it might be then an ideal option. If you find it used, it is a bargain and reliable. Or if you want a DD pick your Monaco or Primary Control

Plus visiting Schick, Schroder, Mayer and other German designers will give skinnyfla some insights into optimizing the signal path for analog - so he might even end up with a completely different signal path to what he has now, that could require lower priced analog set up.

I have even seen an AF2 go at the EUR 25ish k mark

And why not a Brinkmann DD? The Oasis, Taurus and Bardo are all very good and upgradeable with the power supply like the Balance. Same benefits as Balance from non-sonic traits.

 

[bonzo75]

And why not a Brinkmann DD? The Oasis, Taurus and Bardo are all very good and upgradeable with the power supply like the Balance. Same benefits as Balance from non-sonic traits.

i haven’t heard one I liked, and the manufacturer himself says his top models are belt. To buy DD, I would buy from a manufacturer specialising in DD.