Koetsu

[bonzo75]

Hi Ked

please explain your logical or illogical rational behind Lyra's overpriced rebuild?

Lyra throw away everything in the cartridge except the body and rebuild it - so you are getting a new cartridge at 50% off the retail price.

I assume Koetsu do a similar thing.

Already discussed by mtemur and me in follow up posts.

 

[XV-1]

Already discussed by mtemur and me in follow up posts.

Ked with respect, you are talking out of your arse.

manufacturer rebuild costs are not a reflection on how much it costs to rebuild a cartridge - it's based on a % of the retail price and how much of a discount owners get if they want to continue spinning a cartridge after it worn out. I as an owner are happy to get 50% for an effective trade in before any discount is applied.

any owner can get a retipper to retip their expensive cart and yes its a lot cheaper, however you no longer own a Lyra or a Koetsu or an Ortofon nor do you know what the subsequent sound will be like and it's longevity. Who in the right mind would do that unless the cartridge is no longer manufactured.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked with respect, you are talking out of your arse.

manufacturer rebuild costs are not a reflection on how much it costs to rebuild a cartridge - it's based on a % of the retail price and how much of a discount owners get if they want to continue spinning a cartridge after it worn out. I as an owner are happy to get 50% for an effective trade in before any discount is applied.

any owner can get a retipper to retip their expensive cart and yes its a lot cheaper, however you no longer own a Lyra or a Koetsu or an Ortofon nor do you know what the subsequent sound will be like and it's longevity. Who in the right mind would do that unless the cartridge is no longer manufactured.

No I did not say any of those things. You are defending your Lyra purchase, that's expected.

 

[jadis]

When I bought my first Koetsu, a slightly used Black in the early 90s, I didn't think of rebuilding costs before or after I bought it. It was the sound, the way it conveys music, that drew me to it. Prior to that, I have used AT312, Grado 8MR, Monster Cable Alpha 2, Madrigal Carnegie 1, mostly from reviews of magazines. I was always restless and always found something missing. Then a friend offered a Lyra modified Koetsu which I had posted here earlier. Still was restless, till the Black , and I never looked anywhere ever. I then took the country distributorship in the 2005 and bought myself a Rosewood Signature, it was the only house sound that I would 'upgrade to'. IME as a distributor, 100% of rebuilding jobs were results of 'destroyed by the owner or his house help. So it was actually a useful outlet or option rather than junk it, sell it low, or retip is from 3rd parties found in the net or elsewhere. Those who retipped not from Koetsu either ended up not using it or selling it. We can only assume why. One such job was shown to me and the cantilever not only has a different color but a different angle, a much larger one. They couldn't muster enough to pay for the real rebuilding price, which is their right. Some bought an almost dilapidated 70s long body for cheap, hoping to swing it for some good price but found out that the suspension no longer works correctly. Naturally, they will not pay for the Koetsu rebuilding price and some just kept it, and others sell it as it where is to someone who is willing to have it rebuilt by Koetsu. It's all a matter of choice when it comes to how people want to shell out their money.

 

[Nitram]

I thought of starting a new thread, and it's all about Koetsu products, its name, almost synonymous with mystique and magic; for many years prior to owning one, it was like an elusive dream. Then a Black fell into my lap and me, I fell for it, and even took the country dealership of it in the mid 2000s.

Here is a picture of the late grand old man who started Koetsu - Yoshiaki Sugano

View attachment 37210

And this is one of my favorite reads, of Stig Bjorg of Lyra - Remembering Yoshiaki Sugano

https://www.stereophile.com/news/11249/index.html

One of the earliest Urushi model:

View attachment 37211

An early 'Long Body' Onyx:

View attachment 37212

Old Urushi MKII Boxes, with the model name still indicated:

View attachment 37213

An early 'Long Body' Rosewood:

View attachment 37214

Ah yes...I have used a Rosewood since the early 1990s on my Micro RX5000...It is, without a doubt, one of the best cartrides ever made. I also have a Black on one of the other arms as well. TY for the nostalgia and praise for a great craftsman.

 

[bonzo75]

When I bought my first Koetsu, a slightly used Black in the early 90s, I didn't think of rebuilding costs before or after I bought it. It was the sound, the way it conveys music, that drew me to it. Prior to that, I have used AT312, Grado 8MR, Monster Cable Alpha 2, Madrigal Carnegie 1, mostly from reviews of magazines. I was always restless and always found something missing. Then a friend offered a Lyra modified Koetsu which I had posted here earlier. Still was restless, till the Black , and I never looked anywhere ever. I then took the country distributorship in the 2005 and bought myself a Rosewood Signature, it was the only house sound that I would 'upgrade to'. IME as a distributor, 100% of rebuilding jobs were results of 'destroyed by the owner or his house help. So it was actually a useful outlet or option rather than junk it, sell it low, or retip is from 3rd parties found in the net or elsewhere. Those who retipped not from Koetsu either ended up not using it or selling it. We can only assume why. One such job was shown to me and the cantilever not only has a different color but a different angle, a much larger one. They couldn't muster enough to pay for the real rebuilding price, which is their right. Some bought an almost dilapidated 70s long body for cheap, hoping to swing it for some good price but found out that the suspension no longer works correctly. Naturally, they will not pay for the Koetsu rebuilding price and some just kept it, and others sell it as it where is to someone who is willing to have it rebuilt by Koetsu. It's all a matter of choice when it comes to how people want to shell out their money.

none of my posts referred to any retip/rebuild being done by someone other than the manufacturer. I simply pointed out that carts from certain manufacturers have a much lower retip than those from others. I was comparing vdh for vdh carts, koetsu for koetsu carts, Lyra for Lyra carts, and so on.

that said, since you brought it up, my friend’s koetsu urushi retipped by an U.K. company that does the paratrace retip sounds much better than his koetsu jade diamond in the same system, and I never liked the stock urushi in two other systems

 

[jadis]

none of my posts referred to any retip/rebuild being done by someone other than the manufacturer. I simply pointed out that carts from certain manufacturers have a much lower retip than those from others. I was comparing vdh for vdh carts, koetsu for koetsu carts, Lyra for Lyra carts, and so on.

Ok Ked, understood. So shall I understand it to mean that before you buy any cart, you will inquire about its retipping or repair cost, by the same cart manufacturer for each ? And that you have canceled out choices of cartridges which you perceive as having an exorbitant repair cost?

 

[jadis]

that said, since you brought it up, my friend’s koetsu urushi retipped by an U.K. company that does the paratrace retip sounds much better than his koetsu jade diamond in the same system, and I never liked the stock urushi in two other systems

No problem with that, it is your opinion and can certainly have such views on anything that you hear.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok Ked, understood. So shall I understand it to mean that before you buy any cart, you will inquire about its retipping or repair cost, by the same cart manufacturer for each ? And that you have canceled out choices of cartridges which you perceive as having an exorbitant repair cost?

yes

That said, my sonic choices price aside too landed on the red sparrow on a vyger, Dava for more generic use, and then vdh Stradivarius, all which have low retip costs, and maybe atlas lambda sonically, which has a high retip cost. SPU brings up the lower price high value option.

That said, I can understand some people may have differing sonic tastes, but the question is how many have the certainty to know that they are going to like their high price retip choices substantially more than the low price retip ones, to justify buying a high price retip one in the first place.

 

[jadis]

That said, I can understand some people may have differing sonic tastes, but the question is how many have the certainty to know that they are going to like their high price retip choices substantially more than the low price retip ones, to justify buying a high price retip one in the first place.

I do think, at least from this thread, that Koetsu users ( I cannot speak for other brands that has your so-called high price retip charges), do listen first (possibly in other's systems) before buying one. And there are many Koetsu users here who have posted multiple models of Koetsus which they own at the same time, meaning, they liked the sound despite the brand having a high retip cost. Prior to you and maybe another member here, I do not know anyone nor read bout them who buys cartridges that has been filtered to have a perceived retip cost. There are many members of a FB Koetsu group who complain of the high rebuilding cost and there are many too who believe that is is the only way to go. As I mentioned before, I personally am ready to pay for the Koetsu rebuilding cost because it is the sound I want.

 

[bonzo75]

I do think, at least from this thread, that Koetsu users ( I cannot speak for other brands that has your so-called high price retip charges), do listen first (possibly in other's systems) before buying one.

I doubt that they have a comparison to alternatives to know their options.

 

[strappoacustico]

I have always found curious the attitude of those who express certain judgments on the choices of others to the point of questioning their ability to evaluate whether what they have created is well set up and gives excellent results from a sound point of view.

If someone wrote that people often justify what they have on forums, reading certain reviews, one cannot help but think that it would be good for many, to think that the respectable opinion of a person is worth that person's opinion, nothing moreover.
If there are those who think that of all the components in the chain, the cartridge is the one purchased most often without being listened to or without adequate exposure, never mind! Perhaps it is more difficult for some to think that they have had opportunities to listen and that they have even chosen it following the indications of their fallacious ears, but their ears.
For example, I probably don't have the resources to do what Tang, Gian, Mike do, but, just to get into the Koetsu theme, I had the opportunity to try the Koetsu Azule Platinum on my Vyger Indiane Signature IV gen turntable. In my opinion it is very balanced in all areas of the spectrum while maintaining its musicality, an aspect that I really appreciate in my ZYX. Surprising, compared to some models of the past, the reconstruction of the soundstage, the spatial recreation and the harmonic resolution. This Azule with stone body seems to me to mark a discontinuity with respect to some cartridges such as the Rosewood Signature and I think it deserves a listen.

 

[bonzo75]

All cartridges deserve a listen. That still does not address the retip expenses. Yours is a passionate post about the cartridge you own or have heard and does not address the ones you haven’t, which whether sonically better or not for you, definitely have a lower retip cost and are less fragile than the zyx. Also how koetsu will sound on vyger is totally different from the SME that GoW started with questioning the ability of others to make choices

 

[XV-1]

All cartridges deserve a listen. That still does not address the retip expenses. Yours is a passionate post about the cartridge you own or have heard and does not address the ones you haven’t, which whether sonically better or not for you, definitely have a lower retip cost and are less fragile than the zyx. Also how koetsu will sound on vyger is totally different from the SME that GoW started with questioning the ability of others to make choices

Ked, I addressed the retip expenses which you duly ignored.
Bit it is easy to ignore when one has nothing invested.

BTW, happy new year everyone!!!

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, I addressed the retip expenses which you duly ignored.
Bit it is easy to ignore when one has nothing invested.

BTW, happy new year everyone!!!

You did not address a single point I wrote about

 

[jadis]

BTW, happy new year everyone!!!

Happy New year, XV 1.

 

[jadis]

For example, I probably don't have the resources to do what Tang, Gian, Mike do, but, just to get into the Koetsu theme, I had the opportunity to...

That is a very important point. Not all people have the resources to hear or buy all the cartridges available, which goes the same with speakers, amps, preamps and other components. Not all gears are available in any town or city where one lives. It takes a lot of resources to turn all stones.

 

[RickS]

Happy New Years to everyone! May the new year bring health and happiness.

 

[Chop]

Happy new year from the UK to everyone!

 

[jadis]

All cartridges deserve a listen. That still does not address the retip expenses. Yours is a passionate post about the cartridge you own or have heard and does not address the ones you haven’t, which whether sonically better or not for you, definitely have a lower retip cost and are less fragile than the zyx. Also how koetsu will sound on vyger is totally different from the SME that GoW started with questioning the ability of others to make choices

I am having a hard time understanding the connection between listening to all cartridges and their retip charges. I'm
not sure of it but with this often repeated complain about repair charges and brands, shall I now believe the a door or bumper repair charges of an Audi or Porsche is the same as that of cheaper car brands? I really don't know, maybe it is?