Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[matthias]

While my room is large, I think the room reflections are within a good range for audio and the noise floor is pretty low (29-30 db-a). I do think I'm hearing subtle details in both TAS and Roon.

The difference between Roon and TAS is very easy to hear and consistent across all recordings. The closest analogy I can think to make might be the difference between tube and solid state. TAS has more bloom, a smoother tonality and a larger and deeper sound stage. Roon is more incisive with more apparent space between instruments. All things considered, I prefer TAS.

But, still it's noticeable that my experience is not remotely close to "night and day" or that Roon sounds relatively like a "transistor radio." So, if, that's what I should be expecting (even accounting for some users possible over-excited hyperbole ) I'm still left wondering why my experience is so much less dramatic.

I wonder if it might be the interaction with the Aqua Dac? Are there any other Aqua users beta listening?

Finally, what I'm saying is not meant as a complaint. Hopefully understanding every experience leads to more knowledge and better sound!

Hi Wil,

what I found very helpful for evaluating components and set-ups is the Tune Method by Fredrik Lejonklou:

https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tune-Method.pdf

I can imagine that by applying this method the differences in favor of TAS are much greater.

Matt

 

[EuroDriver]

Hi Wil,

what I found very helpful for evaluating components and set-ups is the Tune Method by Fredrik Lejonklou:

https://www.lejonklou.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tune-Method.pdf

I can imagine that by applying this method the differences in favor of TAS are much greater.

Matt

This Swedish electronics manufacturer is a new name to me

I found this page on their website has lot of similarities to the way the Extreme has evolved

Lejonklou web page

 

[Kris]

That is odd, not even between extremities like 64 and 8192?

I agree
Thete are very significant differences between the buffer sizes .

 

[Blue58]

While my room is large, I think the room reflections are within a good range for audio and the noise floor is pretty low (29-30 db-a). I do think I'm hearing subtle details in both TAS and Roon.

The difference between Roon and TAS is very easy to hear and consistent across all recordings. The closest analogy I can think to make might be the difference between tube and solid state. TAS has more bloom, a smoother tonality and a larger and deeper sound stage. Roon is more incisive with more apparent space between instruments. All things considered, I prefer TAS.

But, still it's noticeable that my experience is not remotely close to "night and day" or that Roon sounds relatively like a "transistor radio." So, if, that's what I should be expecting (even accounting for some users possible over-excited hyperbole ) I'm still left wondering why my experience is so much less dramatic.

I wonder if it might be the interaction with the Aqua Dac? Are there any other Aqua users beta listening?

Finally, what I'm saying is not meant as a complaint. Hopefully understanding every experience leads to more knowledge and better sound!

Hi Wil,

I think my system may be closest to yours in component and ancillary choice and dare I say the elephant in the room is the Boenicke speakers. They are great speakers but could it be that they do not energise the room or are as incisive as you remember the Avantgarde‘s performance.

As you also say, the combination of ‘warm’ devices may have an accumulative effect. The non v2 Aqua is warmer still and the XLR outputs are warmer also, if you are using those.

But, you should still be hearing a big difference between TAS and Roon as it’s so much better. Sorry I can’t think of anything else to help you. I felt the same way when I got the Extreme wondering what all the noise was about, that was until it burnt in around 1000hrs.

cheers
Blue58

 

[matthias]

This Swedish electronics manufacturer is a new name to me

I found this page on their website has lot of similarities to the way the Extreme has evolved

Lejonklou web page

I am happy to hear that there are similarities.
They were at X-Fi 2019 in NL not far from the Taiko room.
BTW, congrats this thread evolved to 300 pages

Matt

 

[Kris]

Kris, It's interesting to me regarding the effect of the network now with TAS. I have not been able to bring myself YET, to plug directly in to the Extreme from the router. I am afraid I won't hear a difference, but then I will have a BUNCH of network gear to sell.

I will eventually try the Waversa W router into the Extreme directly. I have bypassed the JCAT switches/LPSs in the past and there was a substantial positive difference adding the JCAT switches into the equation. But that was with Roon.

I will try it now with Waversa>>>Extreme and I also have another Verizon Fios $50 Router on another Fios line, I will try that as well.

Will let you know when I can bring myself to do so. I have to be in the right mood Right now the mood is listening and enjoying music and not thinking about the system

I tested this few times .
Again Extreme is less sensitive to the network changes thanks to Emile and Wilson tricks.
But good switch and top clock inside the switch still add very significant bump up In SQ.
I have 4 Buffalo switches on a way from router and was hoping to take away one or two but I cant
do it without compromising the final effect.
I am not sure what is the action in the switch but it is positive each time I tried.

Any changes in the router settings still have effect on the overall presentation.
changing latency there or frame size can have positive effects but can also have a devastating effect.
I ordered exactly the same edgeRouter x and sent it to Jord to install PinkFaun ultra clock.
Also ordered same modem I have and sent it for PF ultra clock install to Jord.
Will report A / B comparisons ones this 2 moded devices arrive.

So far I consider Extreme like a absolute must to have with TAS.
it is impossible to reach this level without extreme.
And it is compleately different animal than everything else in audio server world.

 

[plasmod3]

we keep mentioning switches, if we connect the taiko to the network using fiber does that not negate significantly the influence of switches in a way? curious.

 

[plasmod3]

Tamarind the cat, celebrating the warmth generated by the the successful transfer of 7TB of music from the NAS to his new favorite winter hangout.

View attachment 74673

What's with cats and the extreme. I have no idea how mine got up there! Caught him the other day. He must like the bottom hot and toasty haha

 

[EuroDriver]

we keep mentioning switches, if we connect the taiko to the network using fiber does that not negate significantly the influence of switches in a way? curious.

Unfortunately having an optical link in the network chain is not a panacea to reduce SQ negative effects of packet traffic

When it suits, I would be happy to share what our current state of knowledge is, and what we believe is going on

drop me an email at eurodriversoundtest@gmail.com or PM me

 

[Kris]

Unfortunately having an optical link in the network chain is not a panacea to reduce SQ negative effects of packet traffic

When it suits, I would be happy to share what our current state of knowledge is, and what we believe is going on

drop me an email at eurodriversoundtest@gmail.com or PM me

This is absolutely true .
optical stops some aspects of the noise BUT every conversion from Optical to Ethernet and other way around brings other noise.

But if you have many SFPs and try them in different switches you will find your absolute.
I did that for many months and at least one optical connection with Startech recommended by Emile is a must.
If you have less advanced system you can prefer the Finisar recommended here
or something in between the 2 that is Plantet Tech.

I am sure Edward you will be much more specyfic in PM.

 

[Taiko Audio]

For the record, if you are asking us for advice, we recommend not to invest significantly in network “tweaks” unless money is no object and you don’t mind shelving them down the road.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This Swedish electronics manufacturer is a new name to me

I found this page on their website has lot of similarities to the way the Extreme has evolved

Lejonklou web page

at Axpona 2019 i heard the Lejonklou SINGularity phono and other products from this manufacturer and was quite impressed. something was very correct about the sound. and right about the look and feel. very 'Taiko' like.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

"...recommend not to invest significantly in network “tweaks” unless money is no object and you don’t mind shelving them down the road."

Because the network tweaks become redundant or because they diminish the system/sound?

 

[steve williams]

For the record, if you are asking us for advice, we recommend not to invest significantly in network “tweaks” unless money is no object and you don’t mind shelving them down the road.

Best comment of the day and best words of advice

IIRC one of the purposes of TAS (other than better SQ) was Emile's desire to control the signal from the time it reaches the Extreme until the time it leaves the Extreme and we have TAS and the TAS driver. Then we have coming shortly Taiko's proprietary USB board as well as talk of a proprietary switch which would hopefully make all other switches redundant and unnecessary. I have never used a switch in my system as I have neb=ver felt the need. I don't use fiber in my network as I don't see the need . All I use is an ethernet cable running from my satellite in the sound room to the Extreme. And BTW my router connects wirelessly to my satellites. Once I had the Beta version installed it wes simply amazing to my ears BUT it wasn't until TAS driver was installed that my sound was better than anything I have ever heard from a digital source and it clearly eclipsed Roon which lies idle in my system (even though I have a lifetime license) since November as I just don't consider it remotely close to TAS

So where I am now is waiting on the proprietary USB board . I must admit that my interest was piqued with the use of a switch but hearing what I do now in my system I once again have to ask myself if a switch is really necessary the great scheme of things. Have any of you with TAS Beta who use 1, 2 and even 4 switches in your network tried to remove and compare the sound without the switches to what you have now?

It is Emile's USB board that is soon to be released that I feel will contribute to improved SQ. As for a Taiko switch, I just don't know what it might bring to the table to improve the signal and now to read Emile's comment above , makes me wonder if he is feeling the same. Once the TAS driver was installed the upswing in SQ was beyond anything I would have ever expected

 

[Jpowell]

While my room is large, I think the room reflections are within a good range for audio and the noise floor is pretty low (29-30 db-a). I do think I'm hearing subtle details in both TAS and Roon.

The difference between Roon and TAS is very easy to hear and consistent across all recordings. The closest analogy I can think to make might be the difference between tube and solid state. TAS has more bloom, a smoother tonality and a larger and deeper sound stage. Roon is more incisive with more apparent space between instruments. All things considered, I prefer TAS.

But, still it's noticeable that my experience is not remotely close to "night and day" or that Roon sounds relatively like a "transistor radio." So, if, that's what I should be expecting (even accounting for some users possible over-excited hyperbole ) I'm still left wondering why my experience is so much less dramatic.

I wonder if it might be the interaction with the Aqua Dac? Are there any other Aqua users beta listening?

Finally, what I'm saying is not meant as a complaint. Hopefully understanding every experience leads to more knowledge and better sound!

I'm an Aqua Formula user and my experience with TAS so far lies much closer to what most folks are reporting here, Wil, than yours. While I don't perceive quite as dramatic a contrast between Roon and TAS as some are describing, I find the improvements to be notable, consistent, and entirely positive. And similar in effect to what others are describing, especially the separation of instruments within a cohesive soundstage and the harmonic "rightness" of stringed instruments, for example.
FWIW, I have experienced a few beta quirks that may or may not be related to the standard (latest) USB Aqua XMOS driver: I can play but do not get any sound, e.g., from any of my files higher than 24/96, regardless of which buffer settings I use. And I *may* (still not 100% sure) get a tiny "tick" or pop sound occasionally in the playback of many songs. I'm assuming/hoping any such quirks go away once the Formula-specific usb driver is ready.
Anyway, I'm listening to TAS pretty much exclusively these days, quirks and all, because the SQ improvement is unambiguous in my system.

 

[wil]

Hi Wil,

I think my system may be closest to yours in component and ancillary choice and dare I say the elephant in the room is the Boenicke speakers. They are great speakers but could it be that they do not energise the room or are as incisive as you remember the Avantgarde‘s performance.

As you also say, the combination of ‘warm’ devices may have an accumulative effect. The non v2 Aqua is warmer still and the XLR outputs are warmer also, if you are using those.

But, you should still be hearing a big difference between TAS and Roon as it’s so much better. Sorry I can’t think of anything else to help you. I felt the same way when I got the Extreme wondering what all the noise was about, that was until it burnt in around 1000hrs.

cheers
Blue58

Thanks for the comments, Blue58.

You're thinking pretty much lines up with mine as well for the most part. As I've said, I can imagine that the sound character I'm hearing in TAS might be exceptionally good on my Duo Mezzo horns. But I'm just left to speculate.

I'm using the Aqua xd v2 which is nudged toward the warm spectrum. (I sold my Pacific, which was more incisive). And the Boenicke's push it yet further on the warm spectrum. (thank god I'm not trying to use my old 300b amp in this set up!).

In response I'm putting the Boenicke's bass dsp to it's lowest setting, but I still have found myself wanting more of the incisiveness and texture I'm hearing with Roon.

I'll dive back into the listening today and try again with buffer settings.

One thought I have which may, or may not, be applicable here:

If Emile is voicing TAS with the Pacific DAC and Alsyvox speakers (which I can imagine is an Uber-incisive combination) perhaps a Aqua/Boenicke combination is not going to translate it as well?

But finally, one thing makes me doubt all the speculation above. With my Duo Mezzo set up (w/ same dac and amp), Roon sounded really good -- similar to what I hear with my present Boenicke set up. The sound character is the same (minus the gob-smacking dynamics and scale of the Mezzo's). The TAS voicing seems to seems to be having a sonic effect independent of the speakers I'm using, where-as the Roon character remains the same.

I'll dive back into the listening today and try again with buffer settings.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Best comment of the day and best words of advice

IIRC one of the purposes of TAS (other than better SQ) was Emile's desire to control the signal from the time it reaches the Extreme until the time it leaves the Extreme and we have TAS and the TAS driver. Then we have coming shortly Taiko's proprietary USB board as well as talk of a proprietary switch which would hopefully make all other switches redundant and unnecessary. I have never used a switch in my system as I have neb=ver felt the need. I don't use fiber in my network as I don't see the need . All I use is an ethernet cable running from my satellite in the sound room to the Extreme. And BTW my router connects wirelessly to my satellites. Once I had the Beta version installed it wes simply amazing to my ears BUT it wasn't until TAS driver was installed that my sound was better than anything I have ever heard from a digital source and it clearly eclipsed Roon which lies idle in my system (even though I have a lifetime license) since November as I just don't consider it remotely close to TAS

So where I am now is waiting on the proprietary USB board . I must admit that my interest was piqued with the use of a switch but hearing what I do now in my system I once again have to ask myself if a switch is really necessary the great scheme of things. Have any of you with TAS Beta who use 1, 2 and even 4 switches in your network tried to remove and compare the sound without the switches to what you have now?

It is Emile's USB board that is soon to be released that I feel will contribute to improved SQ. As for a Taiko switch, I just don't know what it might bring to the table to improve the signal and now to read Emile's comment above , makes me wonder if he is feeling the same. Once the TAS driver was installed the upswing in SQ was beyond anything I would have ever expected

i have an alternate viewpoint Steve.

we spend $50k-$150k+ on our digital signal paths.......so if there is low hanging fruit for comparative pennies......pick and eat the damn fruit.

i for sure agree that investing significant dollars in purely network ancillaries is not a good strategic approach with digital. the technology is not stationary. yet; since most of these bits are also in the general computer hardware category, they are really cheap to acquire and simple to install. so adding fibre optic cables, buying little bits and switches, and such things is easy and cheap.

but i don't even worry about it myself. Emile knows my network set-up. every 6 months or so i simply ask him if i need to change anything. any new baubles that i need to change? he tells me and i do it. and these little steps = sonic gains for.......almost nothing.

saying 'never felt the need' is saying it does not matter. Taiko goes to the end of the earth to design and build a no effort spared product then we don't feed it right? that does not make sense when taking these baby steps is sooooooo easy.

just ask Emile what he recommends for your network and do it. or have someone do it. these gains are in the realm of what TAS is doing that we all gush over. it's not sexy to talk about the network pieces where i can't even remember what the heck they are. but they are limiting to the performance and matter.

 

[Blue58]

I'm an Aqua Formula user and my experience with TAS so far lies much closer to what most folks are reporting here, Wil, than yours. While I don't perceive quite as dramatic a contrast between Roon and TAS as some are describing, I find the improvements to be notable, consistent, and entirely positive. And similar in effect to what others are describing, especially the separation of instruments within a cohesive soundstage and the harmonic "rightness" of stringed instruments, for example.
FWIW, I have experienced a few beta quirks that may or may not be related to the standard (latest) USB Aqua XMOS driver: I can play but do not get any sound, e.g., from any of my files higher than 24/96, regardless of which buffer settings I use. And I *may* (still not 100% sure) get a tiny "tick" or pop sound occasionally in the playback of many songs. I'm assuming/hoping any such quirks go away once the Formula-specific usb driver is ready.
Anyway, I'm listening to TAS pretty much exclusively these days, quirks and all, because the SQ improvement is unambiguous in my system.

No issues playing DXD or DSD256 files to the Aqua here and no pops. (Buffer 4096) Definitely something amiss there.
Are you set DoP and using the ASIO driver.?

 

[Blue58]

And purely for fun. First YouTube Roon, second TAS. Nothing else changed in the system. If you prefer the first that’s fine. The difference in harmonic texture is much greater in real life.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And purely for fun. First YouTube Roon, second TAS. Nothing else changed in the system. If you prefer the first that’s fine. The difference in harmonic texture is much greater in real life.

I recognise that room, Barry. Really hoping a Spring visit happens...gotta hear what you're all getting so animated about.