Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Rhapsody]

again IMO you are comparing apples to oranges

I just feel that the shortest path between sources is always the best and I always have concern that the more components the signal travels through only gives opportunity for coloration of the sound but that is just my opinion

My personal experience has been that by changing usb cables or the FO you get pretty much the same tonality. I don't notice any type of "different sound" or any coloration of the sound.

What I have experienced is more transparency and seeing way back into the depth of the soundstage and greater micro dynamics. The differences are subtle but the costs of the playing with the add-ons if one chooses to seem inexpenive compared to any other item in a top tier system.

 

[steve williams]

This is indeed the proposed solution.

Counting in boxes, it is equivalent to the MSB Pro USB. It adds 1 box to convert copper to fiber. That’s really all there’s to it.

That seems to be the best performing option.

Emile am I to infer from these posts that both USB via MSB Pro USB and Ethernet via fiber optic are proposed solutions but going USB is the best solution?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike you're comparing apples and oranges. It just seems all too extraneous for me

I could say the same for you as from what I've read the Select ll is Bit perfect and there is no way to make the sound better so why puhtz with it??

now you are mixing apples and atom bombs.

why did you ever add analog to your system?

why have more than one tone arm or cartridge?

silly.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile am I to infer from these posts that both USB via MSB Pro USB and Ethernet via fiber optic are proposed solutions but going USB is the best solution?

Assuming the interfaces in both server and dac are of sufficient quality, Yes.

 

[steve williams]

now you are mixing apples and atom bombs.

why did you ever add analog to your system?

why have more than one tone arm or cartridge?

silly.

Well I have 2 but truth be told I play only one 99% of the time and I am eternally happy
I asked you why Puhtz with your sound if it is bit perfect. What I get out of all of this is that you pay your money. you pick your flavor and you take your chances.Having said that isn't bit perfect sound...well...perfect?
That is why for me and everything I have read here on WBF is that if given the opportunity I would opt for MSB Pro USB with a USB cable and I'm done

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well I have 2 but truth be told I play only one 99% of the time and I am eternally happy
I asked you why Puhtz with your sound if it is bit perfect. What I get out of all of this is that you pay your money. you pick your flavor and you take your chances.Having said that isn't bit perfect sound...well...perfect?
That is why for me and everything I have read here on WBF is that if given the opportunity I would opt for MSB Pro USB with a USB cable and I'm done

I would opt for MSB Pro USB with a USB cable and I'm done. totally agree. you could stop right there and be a long ways down the road already.

.....of course, to use a MSB Pro USB you also need an MSB dac which i also agree with.

ok; we will get past why we want better sound, since if we are here on WBF we already agree on that part? right?

why try and improve your digital performance, if you already have a 'bit perfect' data stream? i am likely not the best person to make these points, as i'm not a techie as you very well know.

--noise, noise, noise, noise, noise. get rid of it. then get rid of it more. then just when you think you did your best. do better at getting more rid of it.
--interfaces matter. to get a dac to play you must move bits around.....even perfect bits. you store them, then read and move them. every parameter of this movement can/does have an audible effect.
--network performance, pollution from the world wide web which data does not care about matters greatly with streaming music. access to more music easier means networks and streaming are important or even essential to more and more people. streaming bring much listening satisfaction. you can choose to hide under a rock and not stream. but it's coming to get you. now! and when you hear how great it can sound right now, then it will get you excited and change how you view music and what you want.
--servers matter a lot, and until you hear what a top level server can deliver you won't 'get' how important they are.

that is all i have time for right now.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I would opt for MSB Pro USB with a USB cable and I'm done

I would too, and for those not owning a MSB dac, there’s the new Intona USB 3.0 isolator, its noisefloor is something like -150 to -160dB at USB frequencies. That was that other recommended box, not needed, but it does give you a similar effect as MSB Pro USB over MSB “normal” USB at the same box count.

 

[steve williams]

I would opt for MSB Pro USB with a USB cable and I'm done. totally agree. you could stop right there and be a long ways down the road already.

.....of course, to use a MSB Pro USB you also need an MSB dac which i also agree with.

ok; we will get past why we want better sound, since if we are here on WBF we already agree on that part? right?

why try and improve your digital performance, if you already have a 'bit perfect' data stream? i am likely not the best person to make these points, as i'm not a techie as you very well know.

--noise, noise, noise, noise, noise. get rid of it. then get rid of it more. then just when you think you did your best. do better at getting more rid of it.
--interfaces matter. to get a dac to play you must move bits around.....even perfect bits. you store them, then read and move them. every parameter of this movement can/does have an audible effect.
--network performance, pollution from the world wide web which data does not care about matters greatly with streaming music. access to more music easier means networks and streaming are important or even essential to more and more people. streaming bring much listening satisfaction. you can choose to hide under a rock and not stream. but it's coming to get you. now! and when you hear how great it can sound right now, then it will get you excited and change how you view music and what you want.
--servers matter a lot, and until you hear what a top level server can deliver you won't 'get' how important they are.

that is all i have time for right now.

Mike you’re preaching to the choir when you talk about noise in a system. I get it. But please don’t hold it up to me and other readers that we just don’t get it until we hear what a top level server can do. I get it. What I don’t get is that if it’s so top level why you have to tweak it. Nothing more.

And yes it was you to whom I was referring when I used the MSB Pro USB with a good USB cable. and said I would be done. According to Emile this is the best solution.

 

[nuway]

I would too, and for those not owning a MSB dac, there’s the new Intona USB 3.0 isolator, its noisefloor is something like -150 to -160dB at USB frequencies. That was that other recommended box, not needed, but it does give you a similar effect as MSB Pro USB over MSB “normal” USB at the same box count.

Emile, Have you tried any decent USB 3.0 cable with the Intona 3.0? They are limited options here.

 

[microstrip]

It can be quite easy:

Most of the Extreme owners use this:

Shopping list:
1 x Startech ET91000SFP2 Fiber Media Converter
2 x Startech SFP1000ZXST SFP Modules
1 x Fiber cable at needed length, 9/125 OS2 low loss quality, LC connectors on both sides

Setup:
1) connect the Startech ET91000SFP2 Fiber Media Converter to either main switch or ISP router with a copper UTP cable
2) insert 1 Startech SFP1000ZXST SFP Module into the Startech ET91000SFP2 FMC SFP slot
3) insert 1 Startech SFP1000ZXST SFP Module into the Extreme SFP slot
4) connect Fiber cable to the SFP modules mentioned in Step 2 and 3

All of them are thrilled with the improvement over a regular copper UTP cable between server and switch or ISP router, none of them had any issues getting it to work.

COMPLETELY optional tweaks:
-Replace FMC power supply with a high quality LPS
-Replace Ethernet copper cable from FMC to switch/ISP router with an audiophile version of your choice
-Replace Switch (if used) with an audiophile version
-Replace Switch and/or ISP router powersupplies with a high quality LPS

I highlighted COMPLETELY because most are already so satisfied with the performance at this stage they are not that eager to try and squeeze out more.

Thanks, your setup list is really valuable - IMHO you should be able to sell these modules to Extreme buyers, it looks mandatory , not optional.

But my concern is about the COMPLETELY optional tweaks: knowing that these tweaks manage to change the sound performance of the Extreme is disturbing. And the argument that statistically "most are already so satisfied with the performance at this stage" never managed to make advances in our understanding.

The other aspect is that the usual analogue tweaks are extremely simple - audio and power cables, footers or racks. But quality LPS's or switch/ISP router s not a trivial matter. And you seem to be delivering us, poor digital ignorant people, in the hands of the digital voodoo people ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike you’re preaching to the choir when you talk about noise in a system. I get it. But please don’t hold it up to me and other readers that we just don’t get it until we hear what a top level server can do. I get it. What I don’t get is that if it’s so top level why you have to tweak it. Nothing more.

sorry, not intending to insult anyone. but when the benefit and justification of these tweaks are challenged and denigrated as so much excess effort chasing angels on the head of a pin, i was just trying to drive home my point that the onion of digital noise has seemingly infinite layers.

imagine the state of mind it requires to design the Extreme (or the Taiko Tana mods to the Herzan?)

i'm a piker in that realm.

And yes it was you to whom I was referring when I used the MSB Pro USB with a good USB cable. and said I would be done. According to Emile this is the best solution.

 

[microstrip]

(... )

---noise, noise, noise, noise, noise. get rid of it. then get rid of it more. then just when you think you did your best. do better at getting more rid of it.
--interfaces matter. to get a dac to play you must move bits around.....even perfect bits. you store them, then read and move them. every parameter of this movement can/does have an audible effect.
--network performance, pollution from the world wide web which data does not care about matters greatly with streaming music. access to more music easier means networks and streaming are important or even essential to more and more people. streaming bring much listening satisfaction. you can choose to hide under a rock and not stream. but it's coming to get you. now! and when you hear how great it can sound right now, then it will get you excited and change how you view music and what you want.
--servers matter a lot, and until you hear what a top level server can deliver you won't 'get' how important they are.

that is all i have time for right now.

Mike,

It is what puzzles me. We pay for a high quality DAC that just asks for a simple bit exact flux and still have to be concerned about all these aspects ... I would love to have the opinion of the MSB developers about this subject.

 

[marty]

It wasn't that long ago that everyone pretty much agreed that USB was far less desirable than sPDIF. ethernet and AES/EBU to connect a source to one's DAC. Now USB appears to be surging in the polls!

This reminds me of diets. Regarding the simple burger for example, first it was "don't eat the bread, only the meat". Then it was "don't eat the meat, only the bread". And then it went back again. Until someone figures this out, I'll be at Chick-Fil-A.... (it's the #1 rated fast food chain in the US for a reason!)

 

[bonzo75]

It wasn't that long ago that everyone pretty much agreed that USB was far less desirable than sPDIF. ethernet and AES/EBU to connect a source to one's DAC. Now USB appears to be surging in the polls!

This reminds me of diets. Regarding the simple burger for example, first it was "don't eat the bread, only the meat". Then it was "don't eat the meat, only the bread". And then it went back again. Until someone figures this out, I'll be at Chick-Fil-A.... (it's the #1 rated fast food chain in the US for a reason!)

No American fast food. Stick to age old ethnic food like analog

 

[microstrip]

It wasn't that long ago that everyone pretty much agreed that USB was far less desirable than sPDIF. ethernet and AES/EBU to connect a source to one's DAC. Now USB appears to be surging in the polls!

This reminds me of diets. Regarding the simple burger for example, first it was "don't eat the bread, only the meat". Then it was "don't eat the meat, only the bread". And then it went back again. Until someone figures this out, I'll be at Chick-Fil-A.... (it's the #1 rated fast food chain in the US for a reason!)

DACs are so diverse and connections are so specific that there are still no rules. Just because some people speak louder does not mean that some type of connection is better than another.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It wasn't that long ago that everyone pretty much agreed that USB was far less desirable than sPDIF. ethernet and AES/EBU to connect a source to one's DAC. Now USB appears to be surging in the polls!

it does take some forward thinking manufacturers to help us move forward with some advances, which maybe were already happening, but i don't know about that.

when you get a leading dac maker, learning how to improve their transport with a superior optical interface, decided to try it with their USB and found it took things further. then their modular design made it easy to offer it to their customers. and........you add a server builder who refined their USB output.

combine the 2, and there you go.

This reminds me of diets. Regarding the simple burger for example, first it was "don't eat the bread, only the meat". Then it was "don't eat the meat, only the bread". And then it went back again. Until someone figures this out, I'll be at Chick-Fil-A.... (it's the #1 rated fast food chain in the US for a reason!)

we have a Chick-Fil-A in town, but the line is always so long you can't even get into the parking lot.

 

[Rhapsody]

What I don’t get is that if it’s so top level why you have to tweak it. Nothing more.

Steve, I am not answering you, but for other readers, please understand if you don't already after readng this said 10+ times in this thread, you do NOT have to tweak the Extreme. No tweaks, nothing, nada. Modem>Extreme>DAC.

There is nothng that needs to be done to the Extreme other than connect it to your modem and to your DAC.

Of course like your TT, R2R, Amps, preamps etc. if you choose to experiment with add-ons to enhance the sonic performance then have it and enjoy.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks, your setup list is really valuable - IMHO you should be able to sell these modules to Extreme buyers, it looks mandatory , not optional.

This list is to help non Extreme owners browsing this thread. I do advice, and supply, these parts with an Extreme on request.

But my concern is about the COMPLETELY optional tweaks: knowing that these tweaks manage to change the sound performance of the Extreme is disturbing.

It’s quite minimal once that fiber setup is in place. I dont even bother to go there myself, a set of footers can do more then all of it combined, hence the COMPLETELY

When you use a renderer though, this all becomes significant.

I have a love/hate relationship with networking, I love it for the access it gives you to a music collection you cannot even possibly fully explore in your lifetime. I hate it for being the single most harmfull thing for sound quality.

Therefor a lot of our design efforts focus on minimizing its diabolical influence, and we’ve come a long way in accomplishing just that, proof of that is superior qobuz playback quality over local ssd storage, and that is there, with or without any additional tweaks.

Now it may be more clear why I’m not a fan of ethernet renderers. With the Extreme, with its more then excellent networking audio performance, I have not come across any DAC which performs better over ethernet then USB, not even MSB.

To add to that, the Audiophile in me does NOT enjoy tweaking my networking setup. I get zero warm fuzzy feelings from spending money on switches, ethernet cables, ethernet isolators, etcetera.

 

[steve williams]

Mike,

It is what puzzles me. We pay for a high quality DAC that just asks for a simple bit exact flux and still have to be concerned about all these aspects ... I would love to have the opinion of the MSB developers about this subject.

Francisco

I guess I was beating around the bush whereas you asked the question direct. I did say to Mike that it was he to whom I referred when I said if it were me I know which way I would go and then I’m done

IOW with a DAC as great as the Select ll feeding bit perfect sound is there a need to be concerned about these issues. I believe the Select ll will stand in its own merits and this is not a knock on the Extrene which is purported to be the creme de last creme.

What Francisco and I are asking is why with the Select 2 we need to be concerned

 

[Taiko Audio]

What Francisco and I are asking is why with the Select 2 we need to be concerned

Steve, trying to understand what you are asking Mike, in your mind, do you consider the USB cable to be more influential then the source feeding it?