Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[cat6man]

Emile responded to my questioning (generalizing from here on) certain aspects of files that he expended a great amount of time and energy minimizing impact. The amount of compression that may have bogged down older hardware unpacking is trivial on an Extreme. File handling (embedded pictures etc) should also be no source for concern.



Opinions vary widely on if older or lower quality optical drives provided the best possible rips back when or currently. You can always select a few albums and use a collection of hardware and software you feel offers the highest quality and rip them to WAV.

I have suspicions older files and especially those transferred around over the years lose magic. Nothing lasts forever. Including strategies to provide storage for an entire library of ripped files, in some homes.

The differences I hear are with the extreme's extreme cpu hardware and yet local FLAC sounds degraded. It really can't be just the hardware power as you note, but something is still going on.

As for old files/rips, my WAV file is about 4-5 years old and sounds great. The FLAC made from that WAV a few days ago does not sound as good, so I don't see age of rip as a factor.

 

[cat6man]

I would expect them to sound different, especially when local.

I expect that ANY well implemented audio system with high levels of transparency can and does differentiate between file formats. What is preferred by the individual audiophile is anothe

Since FLAC is lossless, I expect the opposite and would not expect any difference.

If the h/w is extremely powerful, I wonder if the output stream is formatted and fed to the USB identically, or if some packing/formatting/sequencing is somehow different.

Is there a way to bit capture the USB stream and compare the results, packet by packet?
Maybe it's time to look at the FLAC decoders and exactly how they output data?

Time for someone to patent a realtime improved FLAC decoder (and USB interface?)

 

[cat6man]

Since FLAC is lossless, I expect the opposite and would not expect any difference.

If the h/w is extremely powerful, I wonder if the output stream is formatted and fed to the USB identically, or if some packing/formatting/sequencing is somehow different.

Is there a way to bit capture the USB stream and compare the results, packet by packet?
Maybe it's time to look at the FLAC decoders and exactly how they output data?

Time for someone to patent a realtime improved FLAC decoder (and USB interface?)

How to sniff USB traffic ? | How to capture USB data ?

www.sysnucleus.com

 

[QuantumWave]

Bringing your attention to an interesting DAC that I am experimenting with recently, the Shanling M30. Few strong points - reasonably priced, runs on battery, AK 4497 dual dac chips, high power headphone output that drives Abyss/HFM, XMOS2 chip, choice of stage between bypass/transistor or even Korg tubes (very cute!). Not a Dave or SOTA but an interesting concept that actually sings well possibly a good match for the upcoming Extreme BMS for a fully off-grid solution (solar charging for going green )

 

[Christiaan Punter]

@Christiaan Punter Are you saying that you prefer a streamed file in WAV to a local file in Flac? And comparing a WAV streamed to WAV local, only a slight preference to the local file?

For some reason, I just assumed all Qobuz streaming was Flac. Is it a mix of Flac and WAV?

Hi Wil, all Qobuz streaming is indeed FLAC but the service provides many options for downloading, among which FLAC and WAV. In all cases, I have a preference for local WAV, and a mild preference for local FLAC over streaming FLAC.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Christiaan,
do you know which FLAC compression level Qobuz applies for streaming?
AFAIK, the default FLAC compression level is 5.
Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt, alas, I don't know. But I did do some testing with FLAC compression levels a long time ago and I even listened to zero compression FLACs. IIRC, the slightly sweeter and slightly more fluid properties of FLAC remained, no matter the level of compression. I should also add that the level of audibility may differ depending on the hardware and software that are used for the decoding, as well as the method of unpacking.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Since FLAC is lossless, I expect the opposite and would not expect any difference.

If the h/w is extremely powerful, I wonder if the output stream is formatted and fed to the USB identically, or if some packing/formatting/sequencing is somehow different.

Is there a way to bit capture the USB stream and compare the results, packet by packet?
Maybe it's time to look at the FLAC decoders and exactly how they output data?

Time for someone to patent a realtime improved FLAC decoder (and USB interface?)

The various audio formats are decoded inside the server before they are sent to the DAC via USB. While I have lots of practical experience and I trust my ears, I'm kind of lacking in terms of technical explanations for all the things that we can hear that affect digital audio. I'll bet that if you looked at the USB stream on a packet-by-packet basis, and you would know how to interpret the results, you would probably not detect a difference. I think this is because it's not the signal itself but rather superimposed factors that are messing with what we hear as the end result. What I do know is that Emile is focusing strongly on these factors and is continuously finding ways to reduce their influences.

 

[cat6man]

I'll bet that if you looked at the USB stream on a packet-by-packet basis, and you would know how to interpret the results, you would probably not detect a difference. I think this is because it's not the signal itself but rather superimposed factors that are messing with what we hear as the end result. What I do know is that Emile is focusing strongly on these factors and is continuously finding ways to reduce their influences.

The last sentence is the key and Emile has demonstrated his chops in this "track down whatever is going on" arena.

For jollies, and because I'm a tech geek, I'll see if I can capture some WAV and FLAC Wireshark logs of the usb data.

 

[Cyrus]

For those that want more detailed information on FLAC, here is a white paper from the British Library (content is in 'layman language').

I believe there were requests made in prior posts for "checking on the file" ... The section on 'Conformance Checking' provides a couple of software tools.

British Library FLAC Format Preservation Assessment

 

[cat6man]

For those that want more detailed information on FLAC, here is a white paper from the British Library (content is in 'layman language').

I believe there were requests made in prior posts for "checking on the file" ... The section on 'Conformance Checking' provides a couple of software tools.

British Library FLAC Format Preservation Assessment

One more observation, then I'll go do some yard work.

From distant memory, I did an experiment that had interesting results, but which I never followed through on.

Config:
Music on NAS, microrendu in NAA mode (i.e. HQPlayer as server), HQP set to no filtering, upsampling or dither.

I experimented with setting HQP to output 16 or 24 bits (max for my totaldac) and played a 16/44 CD quality track. The difference was audible. I assumed that the 24 bit setting would just append 8 zeroes to the end of the 16 bit values, but I was not able to confirm that. Why did they sound different? Was the extra 8 bits of "padding" able to impact the sound? Do we know that WAV and FLAC have the same "padding" and frame/bit structure.

That's enough speculation for now.

 

[Kris]

Did anyone use Mutec USB MC3 smart clock with extereme ?

I am testing some usb converters and there influence on usb power on/ off.
I think Mutec was on the list of DACs with the specific USB and bit deph recommendation.
But jot sure if anyone is using it with extreme .

 

[Taiko Audio]

Did anyone use Mutec USB MC3 smart clock with extereme ?

I am testing some usb converters and there influence on usb power on/ off.
I think Mutec was on the list of DACs with the specific USB and bit deph recommendation.
But jot sure if anyone is using it with extreme .

Yes, in use by multiple but did not keep track of who specifically. Every DAC on the „supported DACs list“ is/has been owned/used by atleast one Extreme owner.

 

[steve williams]

I must be the only user who feels the Extreme is so good that it functions as a stand alone unit

 

[Taiko Audio]

I must be the only user who feels the Extreme is so good that it functions as a stand alone unit

The Mutec is in use to convert USB to AES/EBU or SPDIF.

 

[kswanson27]

Yes, in use by multiple but did not keep track of who specifically. Every DAC on the „supported DACs list“ is/has been owned/used by atleast one Extreme owner.

I'm using the Matrix X-SPDIF2 with good results. It does run pretty warm.

 

[steve williams]

The Mutec is in use to convert USB to AES/EBU or SPDIF.

But what’s the benefit if there is general agreement that USB is best

 

[kswanson27]

But what’s the benefit if there is general agreement that USB is best

In my case I need the conversion.

 

[steve williams]

In my case I need the conversion.

Why do you need AES/EBU

 

[kswanson27]

Why do you need AES/EBU

I'm running from the Extreme USB card to the Trinnov which doesn't have a USB input, only AES and SPDIF. The Matrix has XMOS so it is able to use the Taiko USB driver.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

But what’s the benefit if there is general agreement that USB is best

One use case would be for DACs that just do not offer USB inputs.