Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Zeotrope]

Check the pics - I am connecting Extreme's ground-screw to chassis ground on the Everest - AND I am connecting it's USB port to Altaira signal hub.

Agree that cost/SQ benefit is beneficial - I will be investing in this, most likely with Omega-cables, My eperience so far is that Shunyata has managed to provide nice incremental results as you move up in cable quality (and price).

I doubt there is a benefit to connecting the Everest at 2 ground points. Signal Hub will give better performance than the Chassis Hub. Note that the names “signal” and ”chassis” have nothing to do with where you ground. Shunyata should have chosen better names for the hubs, it’s confusing! In all cases, with Altaira, you are grounding the AC.
You want the lowest impedance (resistance) possible from the AC plug ground on the Extreme to the end of the Shunyata Ground cable. That must be from the Extreme chassis ground screw next to the AC plug. The Signal Hub ground should then be connected to the Everest or Denali ground, not to another Altaira hub.

 

[nonesup]

I doubt there is a benefit to connecting the Everest at 2 ground points. Signal Hub will give better performance than the Chassis Hub. Note that the names “signal” and ”chassis” have nothing to do with where you ground. Shunyata should have chosen better names for the hubs, it’s confusing! In all cases, with Altaira, you are grounding the AC.
You want the lowest impedance (resistance) possible from the AC plug ground on the Extreme to the end of the Shunyata Ground cable. That must be from the Extreme chassis ground screw next to the AC plug. The Signal Hub ground should then be connected to the Everest or Denali ground, not to another Altaira hub.

That is not what Shunyata says on his website.
Shunyata Research Grounding systems are designed to eliminate chassis and signal related ground noise through the use of vanishingly low-impedance ground cables and two separate and discrete ground filtering stations. The Altaira Chassis ground station forms the baseline of this system by draining chassis borne noise, while the separate and distinct Altaira Signal Ground station reduces internally generated component borne noise riding on signal grounds. The results after installing the complete system is a stunning, immediate reduction in overall noise, uncovering a wealth of hidden detail and performance hidden beneath all system's noise floor.

 

[Steve williams]

There have been many posts here over the past few years asking me about the best positioning of Center Stage footers under the Extreme as everyone had concern that the top of the footer would be lying under perforated parts of the bottom of the Extreme. I have mine pushed as far forward and backward and just inside the stock footers and they perform well. Having said that I discussed the issue this past week with Joe Lavrencik the manufacturer of Center Stage and he had a suggestion that I thought was brilliant

For those who own Joe's CMS platforms, they know that Joe ships 4 "interfaces" with each shelf. These are meant to sit under the component that rests on each platform. I have been using these interfaces since I began using CMS platforms. These interfaces are black and a few millimeters thick and are slightly greater in diameter than the bottom of the Center Stage foot. Joe thought about a solution to the above problem for all of a few seconds and said to me that he has an idea which will solve the problem It was his recommendation that those using Center Stage footers under the Extreme obtain 4 of these interfaces and place them "ON TOP" of the footer and under the Extreme so that the top of the footer is not in contact with any of the perforations under the Extreme.

I did this a few weeks ago and much to my amazement the sound was indeed somewhat tighter, more grip and a feeling of better presence. Having said that I still believe there are excellent results using the footers alone BUT when the interfaces are used the sound indeed is better.

Joe told me these interfaces are available so if any users are interested, message me for details

 

[Zeotrope]

That is not what Shunyata says on his website.
Shunyata Research Grounding systems are designed to eliminate chassis and signal related ground noise through the use of vanishingly low-impedance ground cables and two separate and discrete ground filtering stations. The Altaira Chassis ground station forms the baseline of this system by draining chassis borne noise, while the separate and distinct Altaira Signal Ground station reduces internally generated component borne noise riding on signal grounds. The results after installing the complete system is a stunning, immediate reduction in overall noise, uncovering a wealth of hidden detail and performance hidden beneath all system's noise floor.

I agree it’s confusing but I am correct. I have confirmed this with Shunyata directly. If you read the various guides that Shunyata has provided you will see it’s clear: the point is to ground the AC, not the signal. The ONLY time you would connect a ground via an RCA/Ethernet/etc connection is if you do not have a chassis ground terminal on the component AND you have direct connection to AC ground via the RCA/etc connector. This is again described in Shunyata’s documentation.
The ONLY time you would use a Chassis Hub is if you are connecting both analog and digital components to one Hub. It has nothing to do with how or where you are connecting the ground cables. If you are only connecting one type of component to one Hub, get the Signal Hub.
(Let’s take this conversation to the Shunyata thread or send me a direct message, as it’s getting off the Extreme topic.)

 

[nonesup]

It is true that Shunyata usually has confusing explanations about its products, but if it really is as you say, it would not be confusing, but rather totally contradictory with what they indicate on their website. As I know that Shunyata staff visit these pages, a clarification on this contradiction would be necessary.

 

[Zeotrope]

It is true that Shunyata usually has confusing explanations about its products, but if it really is as you say, it would not be confusing, but rather totally contradictory with what they indicate on their website. As I know that Shunyata staff visit these pages, a clarification on this contradiction would be necessary.

Agreed. I have asked Shunyata to edit this and to consider renaming the Hubs. Other than the quote you provided, everything else is correct and not that confusing, if you read the other documentation on their site, including the examples of how you can connect them. Also, the Absolute Sound review is correct.
I think what they meant by “Signal” Hub is that it’s for one type of signal, eg digital or analog (but not both together). Connections are still made to the chassis, ideally. Again, it has nothing to do with where you are making the connections. Shunyata clearly states that the best way to connect is via a ground terminal, if available, and otherwise where resistance is minimized (between the AC ground and the connection point). Fortunately, the Extreme has a dedicated ground point.

 

[treitz3]

Has anyone found out what the cost difference is between a full loom of Venom to Omega?

I agree that each step up has offered more on other items but I am honestly a little hesitant to believe that just dumping unwanted voltage/noise would benefit from upgrading cables on this one. I'm in no way saying that they won't make a difference, I just can't logically figure out how. In my mind, if the connection is there, then the dump is already made. I don't see (or can figure out how) upgrading a dump cable would improve things.

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

Has anyone found out what the cost difference is between a full loom of Venom to Omega?

I agree that each step up has offered more on other items but I am honestly a little hesitant to believe that just dumping unwanted voltage/noise would benefit from upgrading cables on this one. I'm in no way saying that they won't make a difference, I just can't logically figure out how. In my mind, if the connection is there, then the dump is already made. I don't see (or can figure out how) upgrading a dump cable would improve things.

Tom

Yes: Venom ground cable is $250 list and Omega is $800.
For this to be effective , you want to minimize resistance. You’ll note that the Omega is 6 gauge and the Venom is 12 gauge - huge difference! Also, the Omega has the CMode filters.
I look at upgrades like this as whether or not they impact the entire system and or whether the risk of obsolescence is high. In this case, it impacts the entire system and this is probably a “lifetime” purchase. For about $4k (Signal hub plus 2 Omega cables after discount) it’s a small % of the total cost of our systems (a fair guess if you own an Exteme and an Everest or Denali).

 

[treitz3]

Thank you sir. That isn't very much cost at all (comparatively speaking). Agreed about the lifetime purchase. About the only thing one would need to change is if they add more gear or swap out something that another cable connection is required.

What is the minimum bend or turn radius of the grounding cables? Would they work in tight areas or would they need a little real estate?

Tom

 

[Zeotrope]

Thank you sir. That isn't very much cost at all (comparatively speaking). Agreed about the lifetime purchase. About the only thing one would need to change is if they add more gear or swap out something that another cable connection is required.

What is the minimum bend or turn radius of the grounding cables? Would they work in tight areas or would they need a little real estate?

Tom

Happy to help! There is no concern with ability to route the Omega cables. I found them very easy to work with. If you are used to thick power cords, such as Shunyata's Alpha, which I believe is 8 gauge, the Omega ground cables are much smaller in diameter and very easy to work with.
Not sure if this photo helps, but they are no harder to bend than a typical good quality signal cable.

 

[treitz3]

Thanks for the clarification! That's awesome. Not as thick as I imagined. I appreciate your insight with this.

Tom

 

[oldmustang]

That is not what Shunyata says on his website.
Shunyata Research Grounding systems are designed to eliminate chassis and signal related ground noise through the use of vanishingly low-impedance ground cables and two separate and discrete ground filtering stations. The Altaira Chassis ground station forms the baseline of this system by draining chassis borne noise, while the separate and distinct Altaira Signal Ground station reduces internally generated component borne noise riding on signal grounds. The results after installing the complete system is a stunning, immediate reduction in overall noise, uncovering a wealth of hidden detail and performance hidden beneath all system's noise floor.

My understanding of the decision tree for determining which connection points to use on one's components gathered from reading Shunyata's literature, watching their videos and viewing the excellent Suncoast interview video with Caelin Gabriel, is as follows:

1. If the internal signal ground plane(s) are tied to the chassis ground of the component, determined by a very low or zero ohms reading by multimeter between the ground pin of the component's IEC power inlet and the negative or shell portion of an unused RCA jack, pin 1 of an XLR jack, shell of a BNC chassis connector, etc :

a. Use the component's chassis ground screw or binding post, if provided, to connect a ground lead to one of an Altaira devices ground terminals.

b. Use an existing chassis bolt or screw near the audio device's power inlet if a chassis ground screw or binding post is not provided *and* the chassis bolt or screw can be backed out enough to capture a spade lug *and* the chassis screw or bolt is not being used to fasten something internally to the audio device's chassis.

c. Use one of the chassis mounted inputs (RCA, XLR, BNC, USB, ethernet, etc) identified in step 1. above to connect a ground lead to one of the Altaira's ground terminals.

2. If chassis ground and internal signal grounds are *not* tied together, utilize a chassis connection point (binding post, chassis bolt or screw) to ground the chassis. Use one of the chassis mounted input connectors (RCA, XLR, BNC, USB, ethernet, etc) to connect the signal ground plane to the Altaira.

If, as Nils is hearing, utilizing a component's chassis ground point *and* one or more signal input ground points gives further improvements, my supposition is that either the chassis ground and one or more internal signal ground planes are either not tied together internally or if they are, the internal interconnection between chassis ground and signal plane ground is higher impedance than a direct path from signal ground via one of the Shunyata specialized connectors to Altaira.

In the case of the Extreme, perhaps Emile @Taiko Audio can inform us about the chassis ground and signal ground planes for the I/O cards accessible from the back of the Extreme.

As to which Altaira to use, and what kind of grounds (signal or chassis) or components (analog or digital, or mixed) I have to admit I'm still somewhat confused, even after going back and re-reading Shunyata's literature and viewing all the videos, reading the reviews and so forth. Some clarification there would definitely be in order.

Luckily, I don't have to stress on that -- Shunyata's Richard Rogers is a neighbor and even nicer guy in person than the already nice person shown in the TAS video. So when the time comes for me to try out Altaira in my own system I'll have him as an expert resource to depend on.

Steve Z

 

[Zeotrope]

Great summary @oldmustang !
I’ve been dealing with Richard directly, so everything I’m quoting above came from him.
The only part I think needs to be addressed above is that Altaira is ONLY useful if you have a direct connection between AC ground and whatever you are connecting it to. So you would only connect it to an RCA jack, for example, if that is directly connected to AC ground. There is no point otherwise.

EDIT: added the source from Shunyata.com that clarifies the above:
Step 3 Using an Ohm Meter, this worksheet will help determine how each component in your system will be grounded, if at all. This is achieved by testing continuity between AC inlet ground and chassis or signal connectors respectively. This will determine whether a component can be grounded, how it will be grounded, and if a Ground Tail will be necessary.

https://shunyata.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/12/6-ALTAIRA-Component-Continuity-Test-Worksheet-Fillable.pdf

This worksheet tells you everything you need to know about If and Where to ground a component:


And which ALTAIRA Hub to buy is simply:
Are you grounding both analog and digital components with one Hub?
Yes = get the Chassis Hub
No = get one or more Signal Hub(s)

 

[CKKeung]

There have been many posts here over the past few years asking me about the best positioning of Center Stage footers under the Extreme as everyone had concern that the top of the footer would be lying under perforated parts of the bottom of the Extreme. I have mine pushed as far forward and backward and just inside the stock footers and they perform well. Having said that I discussed the issue this past week with Joe Lavrencik the manufacturer of Center Stage and he had a suggestion that I thought was brilliant

For those who own Joe's CMS platforms, they know that Joe ships 4 "interfaces" with each shelf. These are meant to sit under the component that rests on each platform. I have been using these interfaces since I began using CMS platforms. These interfaces are black and a few millimeters thick and are slightly greater in diameter than the bottom of the Center Stage foot. Joe thought about a solution to the above problem for all of a few seconds and said to me that he has an idea which will solve the problem It was his recommendation that those using Center Stage footers under the Extreme obtain 4 of these interfaces and place them "ON TOP" of the footer and under the Extreme so that the top of the footer is not in contact with any of the perforations under the Extreme.

I did this a few weeks ago and much to my amazement the sound was indeed somewhat tighter, more grip and a feeling of better presence. Having said that I still believe there are excellent results using the footers alone BUT when the interfaces are used the sound indeed is better.

Joe told me these interfaces are available so if any users are interested, message me for details

Hi Steve,
Thanks for finding out a solution with Joe.

Would you please post a few photos of you setup of the CMS Center Stage footers with this CMS interface on this thread?
Thanks again!

 

[cat6man]

My understanding of the decision tree for determining which connection points to use on one's components gathered from reading Shunyata's literature, watching their videos and viewing the excellent Suncoast interview video with Caelin Gabriel, is as follows:

1. If the internal signal ground plane(s) are tied to the chassis ground of the component, determined by a very low or zero ohms reading by multimeter between the ground pin of the component's IEC power inlet and the negative or shell portion of an unused RCA jack, pin 1 of an XLR jack, shell of a BNC chassis connector, etc :

a. Use the component's chassis ground screw or binding post, if provided, to connect a ground lead to one of an Altaira devices ground terminals.

b. Use an existing chassis bolt or screw near the audio device's power inlet if a chassis ground screw or binding post is not provided *and* the chassis bolt or screw can be backed out enough to capture a spade lug *and* the chassis screw or bolt is not being used to fasten something internally to the audio device's chassis.

c. Use one of the chassis mounted inputs (RCA, XLR, BNC, USB, ethernet, etc) identified in step 1. above to connect a ground lead to one of the Altaira's ground terminals.

2. If chassis ground and internal signal grounds are *not* tied together, utilize a chassis connection point (binding post, chassis bolt or screw) to ground the chassis. Use one of the chassis mounted input connectors (RCA, XLR, BNC, USB, ethernet, etc) to connect the signal ground plane to the Altaira.

If, as Nils is hearing, utilizing a component's chassis ground point *and* one or more signal input ground points gives further improvements, my supposition is that either the chassis ground and one or more internal signal ground planes are either not tied together internally or if they are, the internal interconnection between chassis ground and signal plane ground is higher impedance than a direct path from signal ground via one of the Shunyata specialized connectors to Altaira.

In the case of the Extreme, perhaps Emile @Taiko Audio can inform us about the chassis ground and signal ground planes for the I/O cards accessible from the back of the Extreme.

As to which Altaira to use, and what kind of grounds (signal or chassis) or components (analog or digital, or mixed) I have to admit I'm still somewhat confused, even after going back and re-reading Shunyata's literature and viewing all the videos, reading the reviews and so forth. Some clarification there would definitely be in order.

Luckily, I don't have to stress on that -- Shunyata's Richard Rogers is a neighbor and even nicer guy in person than the already nice person shown in the TAS video. So when the time comes for me to try out Altaira in my own system I'll have him as an expert resource to depend on.

Steve Z

@oldmustang

Thank you. I almost understand this now.

Maybe Shuntaya could take a page from Emile's handbook and list which components do NOT have chassis connected to a/c ground.
I assume most devices do and therefore the list would be a lot smaller, and hopefully feasible.

I'm not a big fan of try everything and see what sounds best, though sometimes there is no alternative.

 

[oldmustang]

@oldmustang

Thank you. I almost understand this now.

Maybe Shuntaya could take a page from Emile's handbook and list which components do NOT have chassis connected to a/c ground.
I assume most devices do and therefore the list would be a lot smaller, and hopefully feasible.

I'm not a big fan of try everything and see what sounds best, though sometimes there is no alternative.

Good idea. However the helpful thing to know would be which equipment does not connect chassis ground to signal ground. Components that do not connect chassis to a/c ground would be pretty rare in the audiophile world and would have non-conductive chassis and no third ground lead in their power cord, likely either permanently attached power cords or two conductor power inlets, such as IEC320 and the like.

Chassis to a/c ground is a safety requirement for metallic-cased equipment if it is going to pass regulatory approval from UL, CL, CE and other official regulators.

As far as trying everything, I'm not sure there is much alternative -- the chances of two audiophiles having identical systems is pretty small to begin with, then factor in each unique home electrical installation, grounding and ground rod placement.

Different audio components will have differing levels of stray voltage, leakage currents and noise, making the potential (no pun intended) for component to component and component to ground stray current flow highly individual. Unless one has a highly complicated system it is probably not too onerous to try each component and listen for improvement as each ground lead is added.

Steve Z

 

[Taiko Audio]

For chassis „grounding“ I recommend using the M6 grounding bolt situated between the IEC inlet and the fuse holder.

For signal „grounding“ I recommend using a free USB slot. BTW you can use multiple ground leads to multiple slots to increase the „effect“.

*note this is not real electrical grounding, though it can have a significant effect.

Some of you may still be in possession of the ground tweak, the „Setchi“ we used to make once upon a time, the A series of these would connect to the chassis „ground“ and the D series to signal „ground“.

 

[Nils]

Good idea. However the helpful thing to know would be which equipment does not connect chassis ground to signal ground. Components that do not connect chassis to a/c ground would be pretty rare in the audiophile world and would have non-conductive chassis and no third ground lead in their power cord, likely either permanently attached power cords or two conductor power inlets, such as IEC320 and the like.

Chassis to a/c ground is a safety requirement for metallic-cased equipment if it is going to pass regulatory approval from UL, CL, CE and other official regulators.

As far as trying everything, I'm not sure there is much alternative -- the chances of two audiophiles having identical systems is pretty small to begin with, then factor in each unique home electrical installation, grounding and ground rod placement.

Different audio components will have differing levels of stray voltage, leakage currents and noise, making the potential (no pun intended) for component to component and component to ground stray current flow highly individual. Unless one has a highly complicated system it is probably not too onerous to try each component and listen for improvement as each ground lead is added.

Steve Z

Trust but verify - LET YOUR EARS DECIDE

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Components that do not connect chassis to a/c ground would be pretty rare in the audiophile world and would have non-conductive chassis and no third ground lead in their power cord

...my Luxman gear (and I believe Esoteric, and other manufacturers as well) has no safety ground at the wall. That is, they come with a standard, three-prong plug and cable, but ground is not attached at the IEC inlet. They are not good candidates for the Altaira boxes (although they have external ground posts labeled: "signal" in back) IMO.

Here is an excerpt re: Class2:
"Class II equipment may be provided with means for connection to earth for functional (as distinct from protective) purposes only where such a need is recognized in the relevant IEC standard. Such means shall be insulated from live parts by double or reinforced insulation. The means for functional earthing shall have a distinctive marking from the means for protective earthing and shall not be connected by a conductor identified as PE in accordance with IEC 60445."

There are many other regs you can find re:Class2. Portable tools, household appliances and audio gear.

It's all very confusing, and in many cases, not actually "ground" we are talking about, which is probably why @Taiko Audio put the " " in his post.

Pics are from m900 amp as fyi example and display the symbol for signal ground.

 

[oldmustang]

Trust but verify - LET YOUR EARS DECIDE

To quote a master psychologist and designer: "Does it sound better? Yes or No?"

Steve Z