Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
I agree. At this point my analog exists for media unique to LP and the joy of playing a record. The Taiko offers superior musicality, emotional engagement, plus sonics/transparency.
Christiaan Punter
Well-Known Member
Can we listen to Extreme with this TACDA output at the upcoming HE Munich in May?We're not DAC designers, the innovation is in the superior interface, we've incorporated a Rohm BD34301EKV DAC chip because we thought it sounded best of the available "off the shelf" DAC chips and added a JFET class A output stage, but that's about all we could fit on a PCIe card sized PCB. Sure it may outperform 10-20K DACs but to directly compete with a top level DAC like a Lampizator Horizon, MSB Select 2, or Totaldac D1-12 is a bit much to ask for
Thx
Matt
Wow.. did miss this one.. that is the same chip used in Luxman D-10X. This is awesome news!We're not DAC designers, the innovation is in the superior interface, we've incorporated a Rohm BD34301EKV DAC chip because we thought it sounded best of the available "off the shelf" DAC chips and added a JFET class A output stage, but that's about all we could fit on a PCIe card sized PCB. Sure it may outperform 10-20K DACs but to directly compete with a top level DAC like a Lampizator Horizon, MSB Select 2, or Totaldac D1-12 is a bit much to ask for
Had a few questions about router/switch setup... I currently have main router -> edgerouter x (subnet) -> switch -> extreme
1) With the Taiko switch, I will replace the switch before the extreme. Should I also remove the subnet (edgerouter x) before that?
2) Will the Taiko router replace the main router or the edgerouter x in my scenario?
3) When is the ETA for the router?
1) With the Taiko switch, I will replace the switch before the extreme. Should I also remove the subnet (edgerouter x) before that?
2) Will the Taiko router replace the main router or the edgerouter x in my scenario?
3) When is the ETA for the router?
I got the VLAN question multiple times in the past few days, so let me try to answer these questions.
Taiko Team - correct me if needed.
I'll be removing everything I've done and starting with a blank sheet. Start with the simplest network possible to establish a baseline. Then you can try adding it back and determine if there is any difference that you like. The switch and NIC are expected to make your network more immune to upstream changes, so it is very likely that a dedicated VLAN will not make any difference at all. But also, keep in mind that everything that requires more processing (adding a layer 3 subnet included) might be on the way here, so the isolated VLAN may in practice turn out to be a step down. I don't think Taiko can predict the outcome in every possible scenario in every system (network), but the general guideline is to keep the network as simple as possible with as little devices as possible.
There are however some ISP devices with special functions that I don't know if they can be replaced (Taiko will need to confirm that but my guess is you will need to keep those). Two types come to mind:
1. ONT routers with special SSL certificates provided by fiber providers in the US.
In this case (if that's not supported by the Taiko router), you can keep the ONT device and add the Taiko router after.
There is a way to transfer those certificates but that's a complex topic for another day.
2. All in one routers that also act as a cable modem with coax cable input.
This is my case. I will be replacing that device with a simple cable modem and adding the Taiko router after that. My network chain will look like this: Cable Modem --> Taiko Router --> Taiko Switch --> Extreme.
There will also be a proprietary digital output if DAC manufacturers are interested to implement it that will support higher resolution.
Taiko Team - correct me if needed.
Yes, remove it.
I'll be removing everything I've done and starting with a blank sheet. Start with the simplest network possible to establish a baseline. Then you can try adding it back and determine if there is any difference that you like. The switch and NIC are expected to make your network more immune to upstream changes, so it is very likely that a dedicated VLAN will not make any difference at all. But also, keep in mind that everything that requires more processing (adding a layer 3 subnet included) might be on the way here, so the isolated VLAN may in practice turn out to be a step down. I don't think Taiko can predict the outcome in every possible scenario in every system (network), but the general guideline is to keep the network as simple as possible with as little devices as possible.
Yes. The Taiko router should be able to do everything the edgerouter x does.
There are however some ISP devices with special functions that I don't know if they can be replaced (Taiko will need to confirm that but my guess is you will need to keep those). Two types come to mind:
1. ONT routers with special SSL certificates provided by fiber providers in the US.
In this case (if that's not supported by the Taiko router), you can keep the ONT device and add the Taiko router after.
There is a way to transfer those certificates but that's a complex topic for another day.
2. All in one routers that also act as a cable modem with coax cable input.
This is my case. I will be replacing that device with a simple cable modem and adding the Taiko router after that. My network chain will look like this: Cable Modem --> Taiko Router --> Taiko Switch --> Extreme.
I believe the hardware is expected end of Q1 or early Q2, but as Emile posted earlier this is an uncharted territory with security support licences and some other logistics, and so my take is that it may take more time.
Just one BNC.
There will also be a proprietary digital output if DAC manufacturers are interested to implement it that will support higher resolution.
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1 bnc means 192 khz 24 bit max limit ,
that is perfect for all the Totaldac users but only until Emile , Vincent and Lukasz will add TACDD recievers into their DACs.
That will surpass the performance of current formats. ( spidf , AES, USB )
that is perfect for all the Totaldac users but only until Emile , Vincent and Lukasz will add TACDD recievers into their DACs.
That will surpass the performance of current formats. ( spidf , AES, USB )
Well thank you @nenon , nothing to add except I‘d expect the first production batch of router pcbs to be here in about 8 weeks, meaning shipping starts early April.
One other question I was asked a lot lately, which I partially answered in my previous post was:
"Am I going to buy the switch and NIC?"
Of course! What’s the point of having a 4-year old Taiko Extreme design if I don’t utilize the latest technology?
I was pretty close to the sound quality of the Extreme (as it was released 4 years ago) with my DIY experiments. However, when the Taiko USB card was released, the Taiko USB driver added, and TAS (now XDMS) became a reality, the Extreme went far ahead of my DIY experiments, and I had no chances of catching up. The reason I bought a Taiko Extreme was to join the club and get access to Emile's latest innovations. So yes, I am onboard with all the new stuff that will be released this year - switch, NIC, router, DAC, etc. I am also very excited about the big BPS but equally concerned about the cost of that.
"Am I going to buy the switch and NIC?"
Of course! What’s the point of having a 4-year old Taiko Extreme design if I don’t utilize the latest technology?
I was pretty close to the sound quality of the Extreme (as it was released 4 years ago) with my DIY experiments. However, when the Taiko USB card was released, the Taiko USB driver added, and TAS (now XDMS) became a reality, the Extreme went far ahead of my DIY experiments, and I had no chances of catching up. The reason I bought a Taiko Extreme was to join the club and get access to Emile's latest innovations. So yes, I am onboard with all the new stuff that will be released this year - switch, NIC, router, DAC, etc. I am also very excited about the big BPS but equally concerned about the cost of that.
It seems I will need to address this at some point in time in light of these mounting "rumours"
As you all know we have been advocating the use of the USB interface to connect to your DAC while most other server vendors advocate the use of SPDIF/AES/I2S and in a few rare cases Ethernet. The reasons for this are pretty straightforward.
You aspire to meet or exceed cd transport playback performance for 16/44.1 files at a competitive retail price level. This first issue you will run into is a quite obvious one, you need a very significantly larger amount of PCB real estate, functionality and processing power which require much more filtering to have competitive electronics noise levels. You could argue that a CD transport comes with additional expense for rotational stability and vibration control (jitter) but then you're disregarding the streamer hardware possibly being equally sensitive to this, but you do have the luxury of the absence of a motor. Then you need an interface to the DAC. Very low noise SPDIF/AES/I2S solutions have been around for decades with not much, if any, mystery surrounding their sound quality performance. And obviously, using the same interface as a CD transport, it becomes easier to approach a CD transport sound signature. However with a limitation of a 24/192 data rate over a single line, and due to how the interface works, increased noise levels at higher sample rates. Typically this interface will not sound better for higher sample rate files then 16/44.1 (note that the source master quality tends to exceed any of these differences at all time), and worse then 16/44.1 with DSD/DXD files due to the need of significant conversion processing. Ideally you have managed to have CD transport quality playback, for all sampling rates... To us this has been an unacceptable approach from day 1, which is why we went all in on USB. USB data packet rate is fixed and does not change with sampling rate, the interface is universal, the interface sound signature does not change with sampling rate, and it's the same for all receivers, or at least, that was the design goal... Today we know and have proven this is not true. Sure we have developed an USB card with noise levels at or below those of an AES/SPDIF/I2S interface without the jitter/timing sensitivities of those interfaces. But still there were deviations and discrepancies from expected performance. It took designing our own USB driver, querying all DACs our customers support, and designing our driver to be adjustable to... different implementations of USB receivers in DACs. This was quite an elaborate project, but as you have all witnessed the performance delta can be dramatic. However as you also all know by now is that the playback software has it's signature too, and Roon's changed over time. Roon sounds more expansive then CD transports, but also softer and less clear, some prefer this over CD, some don't. So we have XDMS now to level the playing field once more. For 16/44.1 (local file playback) XDMS on the Extreme sounds like a mix of CEC TL0 3.0 timing, Kalista colour shading and the bass of a Mark Levinson 31.5. Let's say what we have today is competitive performance at 16/44.1 to top flight CD transports and deliver on the promise of better performance at higher sample rates (again assuming corresponding master quality).
Where to go next?
All good so far, I'd say we've made steady progress, but, during this journey, exploring the USB interface, driving it to it's absolute limits, coding drivers, coding playback software, the idea came to bear there's room for improvement, considerably so, as further improvements in code are not possible due to USB interface hardware limitations. Yes we can and conceptually have an even better USB interface design, but still this will the same limitations, this kind of improvement would be similar to the "dumb improvement" of overkilling linear power supplies for a bigger multi box model Extreme without actually solving a "problem", without real progress or innovation.
So we took it upon us to embark on a very ambitious project of designing an entire new interface not hindered by the limitations of either the USB or AES/SPDIF/I2S interfaces. This project involves coding a whole new driver stack with corresponding software from scratch and a whole new hardware interface. We have not thought of a name for it yet but internally we refer to it as: TACDA and TACDD for Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Analogue and Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Digital.
The first product we have using this technology is actually close to release already, being a PCIe card with analogue RCA outputs, SPDIF RCA and BNC, and toslink, not that I expect anybody to be using toslink but it costs virtually nothing extra, maybe useful to hookup an A/V receiver?
We have talked to @Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus who is open to incorporating this new interface into his DACs, to Jonathan Gullman of MSB who is willing to port this to their PRO/ISL interface, and have just approached Vincent Brient of Totaldac which would be a very nice next phase of this project.
Fantastic! Love the vision for a real audiophile interface, and the willingness of DAC manufacturers to support it!
Happy New Year to everyone.
I understand it may be a ways away and perhaps impossible to know… but is it possible that Lampizator or MSB could develop an interface for TACDD that could obviate the need for a new DAC or even having to ship back current DAC like the Horizon or Select 2 to the manufacturer for retrofit (like a home install/upgrade)?
Don’t want to wish for the moon and the stars…but hoping this magical momentum continues
I understand it may be a ways away and perhaps impossible to know… but is it possible that Lampizator or MSB could develop an interface for TACDD that could obviate the need for a new DAC or even having to ship back current DAC like the Horizon or Select 2 to the manufacturer for retrofit (like a home install/upgrade)?
Don’t want to wish for the moon and the stars…but hoping this magical momentum continues
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Totally agree...this is an incredible announcement. And I am much enthused to see high end DAC designers opening up to this. Fantastic and look forward to reading more...
I am checking daily if there is already a web page for the router purchese.
When do you think this can be set ?
If you keep simmilar timing this should be some time in February,
but this could be done any time I belive.
