Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained

[Neil.Antin]

1) On the Degas: Do I add the Tergitol before or after?... Can I circulate the tank (Pump+Filter) while degassing?... What's the recommended Temperature at the start?... How much time should I set it for?
2) On the records: What is the recommended max number of records on a 6L tank, and minimum spacing between records?

1) Makes no difference. You degas a new bath, and you degas the beginning of each new day of cleaning. You can degas a new bath of DIW and then add the Tergitol, but the next day when you degas for the new day, the bath will have the Tergitol from the previous day. You can operate the pump/filter during degas.

2) Records should ideally be spaced for the 37-kHz wavelength which is 40-mm (1.5"). However, 1" spacing between records and 1" from the tank wall is an OK compromise.

3) The maximum number of records to clean at once (assuming no pump/filter operating) is based on the tank volume to items being cleaned surface area and speed of rotation. At 1-rpm, the maximum # of records is 3. At 0.5-rpm, the maximum # (calculated) of records is 6. However, 6 records will overload the tank - too many records (too much surface area) for good cleaning. The practical limit for a 6L tank with a low spin speed is 3 records; 4-records may be pushing it.

Take care,
Neil

FYI - if you do not already have and have not already read - here is the operating manual for the Elmasonic P-series - Elmasonic P Ultrasonic Cleaning Units - Operating Instructions (elma-ultrasonic.co.nz)

Good Luck

Neil

 

[LeoDuran]

1) Makes no difference. You degas a new bath, and you degas the beginning of each new day of cleaning. You can degas a new bath of DIW and then add the Tergitol, but the next day when you degas for the new day, the bath will have the Tergitol from the previous day. You can operate the pump/filter during degas.

2) Records should ideally be spaced for the 37-kHz wavelength which is 40-mm (1.5"). However, 1" spacing between records and 1" from the tank wall is an OK compromise.

3) The maximum number of records to clean at once (assuming no pump/filter operating) is based on the tank volume to items being cleaned surface area and speed of rotation. At 1-rpm, the maximum # of records is 3. At 0.5-rpm, the maximum # (calculated) of records is 6. However, 6 records will overload the tank - too many records (too much surface area) for good cleaning. The practical limit for a 6L tank with a low spin speed is 3 records; 4-records may be pushing it.

Take care,
Neil

FYI - if you do not already have and have not already read - here is the operating manual for the Elmasonic P-series - Elmasonic P Ultrasonic Cleaning Units - Operating Instructions (elma-ultrasonic.co.nz)

Good Luck

Neil

Great, thanks!... The P60H should arrive next week! (also ordered the "Ultimate Pro" kit from CleanerVinyl).
BTW, I was hoping on being able to effectively clean at least 3 records per batch, and it seems that's feasible! .

The width of the tank is 151mm (~6 inches), so I'll try to space 3 records ~1.5" apart, and ~1.5" from the walls.

 

[Neil.Antin]

What's the recommended Temperature at the start?... How much time should I set it for?

Missed this one:

You have two different operating modes and this is a recommendation that I have used with other people and the same unit:

1. 10-min @37-kHz and 75% power & sweep mode. Do not operate any pump during this step if cleaning more than 1-record. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

2. 10-min @80-kHz and 100% power & pulse mode. Operate the pump/filter during this step. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

As far as temperature, start at about 85F. The P60 is a powerful unit and with limited volume (6L), the bath is going to heat pretty quickly. You do not want to clean records much above 95F; 100F max. You are not going to be able to serial-clean many records before having to stop to allow the bath to cool-down. How many records, that depends on your ambient temperature. Blowing a small fan on the UT tank (but away from the records) may help somewhat.

4. Otherwise, the book addresses (Chapter XIV) and I have setup people with a pump/filter/radiator system to allow serial cleaning; but there is a bit of DIY involved - the book specifies the appropriate radiator (and fans) in Chapter XIV.

Neil

 

[LeoDuran]

Missed this one:

You have two different operating modes and this is a recommendation that I have used with other people and the same unit:

1. 10-min @37-kHz and 75% power & sweep mode. Do not operate any pump during this step if cleaning more than 1-record. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

2. 10-min @80-kHz and 100% power & pulse mode. Operate the pump/filter during this step. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

As far as temperature, start at about 85F. The P60 is a powerful unit and with limited volume (6L), the bath is going to heat pretty quickly. You do not want to clean records much above 95F; 100F max. You are not going to be able to serial-clean many records before having to stop to allow the bath to cool-down. How many records, that depends on your ambient temperature. Blowing a small fan on the UT tank (but away from the records) may help somewhat.

4. Otherwise, the book addresses (Chapter XIV) and I have setup people with a pump/filter/radiator system to allow serial cleaning; but there is a bit of DIY involved - the book specifies the appropriate radiator (and fans) in Chapter XIV.

Neil

Sounds good!
As the tank gets hot between batches, I could run the fan (intended for drying), and circulate the solution (pump+filter).
(I don't plan on cleaning all day anyway )

Neil, once again, thank you!

 

[Neil.Antin]

To those who use no-rinse Tergitol (or other soluble nonionic surfactants) concentrations, the PACVR book addresses the use of 2.5% IPA to enhance cleaning.

However, the benefit 'may' be more than expected or addressed in the book. Long story short, IPA at 2.5% 'may' result in a reduction of the nonionic surfactant critical micelle concentration (CMC). For those using a no-rinse concentration which is mostly just the CMC, the addition of 2.5% IPA 'may' result in some detergency being provided (recall to get detergency the surfactant concentration needs to be >CMC).

The 'may' result is that this is what the science is predicting. But that does not mean it occurs with a practical application. An easy way to check is if fingerprints were not removed with the no-rinse concentration but removed with the addition of 2.5% IPA, then that would mostly confirm the science.

Note: Do not add ethanol, otherwise the science says the opposite occurs - the CMC increases which is what you do not want. For the chemists reading, the literature says the deviation has to do with the difference in the molecular weights (MW) - ethanol at 46.07 g/mol is a low MW alcohol while IPA at 60.1 g/mol is a high MW alcohol.

Note: Adding more IPA does not provide any added benefit until you get to much higher concentrations that can pose flammability hazards, and because of liability issues, I do not make any specific recommendations for UT >2.5% IPA.

Note: If already using a nonionic surfactant at a high enough concentration (3-4X CMC) to get full detergency, I do not see much benefit with adding 2.5% IPA.

Information Note from the book: If using alcohol in an open ultrasonic tank, recall paragraph VIII.8.8 Alcohol Evaporative Losses. Unless the tank is refreshed frequently, the alcohol concentration is going to decrease faster than the evaporative water losses. For extended tank operation with alcohol, monitoring with an alcohol specific (ethanol or IPA) hydrometer is required if the benefits of the alcohol are to be continuously realized.

Take care,
Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

circulate the solution (pump+filter).

Keep in mind that whatever power the pump draws, that adds to heating the fluid. However, the surface agitation with the fan may be more beneficial than with just the fan - try both and see which works best.

Neil

 

[tima]

How much time should I set it for?

Missed this one:

You have two different operating modes and this is a recommendation that I have used with other people and the same unit:

1. 10-min @37-kHz and 75% power & sweep mode. Do not operate any pump during this step if cleaning more than 1-record. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

2. 10-min @80-kHz and 100% power & pulse mode. Operate the pump/filter during this step. Note adjust time as needed to get an equal # of record rotation - no fractions.

As far as temperature, start at about 85F. The P60 is a powerful unit and with limited volume (6L), the bath is going to heat pretty quickly. You do not want to clean records much above 95F; 100F max. You are not going to be able to serial-clean many records before having to stop to allow the bath to cool-down. How many records, that depends on your ambient temperature. Blowing a small fan on the UT tank (but away from the records) may help somewhat.

4. Otherwise, the book addresses (Chapter XIV) and I have setup people with a pump/filter/radiator system to allow serial cleaning; but there is a bit of DIY involved - the book specifies the appropriate radiator (and fans) in Chapter XIV.

Neil

Re item #1. Based on my experience with the P120, what I use and suggest is to switch on automatic frequency change mode for the first 10 minutes at 80% power. This causes the frequency to alternate between 37kHz and 80kHz in 30 second intervals. This is described on page 15 of the P Series manual.

To turn on automatic frequency change mode, hold the freq key until you see an asterisk (*) next to the frequency setting - maybe two seconds of holding. At the end of 10 minutes, press the frequeny button again to turn off automatic frequency change mode; the asterisk will go away.

I use the same settings Neil describes in item #2 except I do not use Pulse mode.

 

[LeoDuran]

Re item #1. Based on my experience with the P120, what I use and suggest is to switch on automatic frequency change mode for the first 10 minutes at 80% power. This causes the frequency to alternate between 37kHz and 80kHz in 30 second intervals. This is described on page 15 of the P Series manual.

To turn on automatic frequency change mode, hold the freq key until you see an asterisk (*) next to the frequency setting - maybe two seconds of holding. At the end of 10 minutes, press the frequeny button again to turn off automatic frequency change mode; the asterisk will go away.

I use the same settings Neil describes in item #2 except I do not use Pulse mode.

Thanks for the feedback!... But I'm still a bit unclear on the Degas cycle (prior to item #1)... Are there recommended Temperature and Time settings for the degassing cycle?
--EDIT--
The P60H alludes to at least configuring the Time setting as Degas mode is enabled.

 

[tima]

Thanks for the feedback!... But I'm still a bit unclear on the Degas cycle (prior to item #1)... Are there recommended Temperature and Time settings for the degassing cycle?
--EDIT--
The P60H alludes to at least configuring the Time setting as Degas mode is enabled.

Neil may have something in his book. I use 10 minutes on both the wash and rinse tanks. I do not set a temperature for degas. The ultrasonic action of degas can raise the temperature some. You can monitor that with your P60's readout.

I don't ask the machine to heat the water for any cycle. I allow it to rise across the two 10 minute ultrasonic wash cycles. Nominal water temperature in the tanks will range from 26 to 30 degrees C in my heated and air-conditioned house depending on the season. The majority of the combined wash cycles are around 30-32 degrees C. As long as temps don't reach above 35 degrees C toward the end of washing, I'm okay.

You will have fun with this and eventually find a protocol that works for you.

 

[LeoDuran]

...
You will have fun with this and eventually find a protocol that works for you.

Thanks!... I'm looking forward to it!

 

[Neil.Antin]

But I'm still a bit unclear on the Degas cycle (prior to item #1).

Neil may have something in his book. I use 10 minutes on both the wash and rinse tanks.

The Elmasonic P-series operators manual Elmasonic P Ultrasonic Cleaning Units - Operating Instructions (elma-ultrasonic.co.nz), page 14 has an Auto Degas mode that lasts for 10-min.

I defer to the OEM in this case with the acknowledgment that Elmasonic is skilled in the art so you can trust them. They have the option of a timed degas for those circumstances when the user is degassing other fluids for lab work such as HPLC (high pressure liquid chromatography) solvents.

 

[LeoDuran]

The Elmasonic P-series operators manual Elmasonic P Ultrasonic Cleaning Units - Operating Instructions (elma-ultrasonic.co.nz), page 14 has an Auto Degas mode that lasts for 10-min.

I defer to the OEM in this case with the acknowledgment that Elmasonic is skilled in the art so you can trust them. They have the option of a timed degas for those circumstances when the user is degassing other fluids for lab work such as HPLC (high pressure liquid chromatography) solvents.

That sounds very reasonable to me!... Thanks!

 

[LeoDuran]

BTW, I can see how making comparisons between systems would be difficult because the condition of test records may not be similar... But, I'm curious how these Elma-based DIY cleaners, with so much configurability and power, compare (at least on average) with well-known RCMs like Klaudio, Degritter, et al.

 

[tima]

BTW, I can see how making comparisons between systems would be difficult because the condition of test records may not be similar... But, I'm curious how these Elma-based DIY cleaners, with so much configurability and power, compare (at least on average) with well-known RCMs like Klaudio, Degritter, et al.

Yes, you can't clean the same record twice.

There is a lot of difference between the DIY Elma-based systems and what I call desktop machines. And there are differences between desktop machines from one another. Here are just a few of the former ...

Filter size and capacity -- desktop cleaner filters generally are not spec'd and tend to have small less effective filters. A nice Pentek cannister can accommodate a 2.5"x9.5" 0.2 micron absolute filter. KLA allows an external filter but I don't know if that can be swapped out for a larger one; depends on the pump as well.

Frequency - the Elma P Series offers dual frequency operation.

Cleaning - the open top stainless steel Elma tanks are simple to clean. Desktop machines have less or minimal accessibility.

Cavitators - to my knowledge all the slotted desktop cleaners have side mounted ultrasonic 'engines'. I believe the Degritter has 2 on each side. Canna remember about the KLAudio. That design works with a single record. The Elmasonic units have cavitators on the bottom that fire upwards allowing cleaning of multiple records. The P120 has 6. Let me know how many the P60 has.

Fans - the Degritter and KLA units include drying fans that blow air on the record. No fans are included with the Elma tanks. The Kuzma RD makes it easy to do air drying.

Rinsing - I believe the Degritter and KLA units now support swappable water tanks which should allow for rinsing. Correct me if that is wrong. (There are threads for both these machines which should talk about their features.) I use a P120 for washing and an Elmasonic S120 for rinsing with its own filter system. The Kuzma RD makes it simple to lift a spindle-full of records out of the P120 and load it into the S120 for rinsing.

The Elma DIY approach allows the end-user to choose the rotisserie, filter, pump and detergent they wish to use. The desktop machines are largely self-contained with each wedded to its own manufacturer. If there is a problem, the machine goes back to the manufacturer for repair. The slotted desktop machines are oriented to push button convenience. The Elma DIY approach has individual components for which the user has responsibility. DIY is more hands on while supporting batch operation.

There's plenty more, but that's what I have off the top of my head. There is also the AudioDesk Systeme (which I owned at one time) which is a single slot hybrid (brushes+cavitation). Other threads in this section have plenty of information if you care to read.

 

[LeoDuran]

There is a lot of difference between the DIY Elma-based systems and what I call desktop machines. And there are differences between desktop machines from one another. Here are just a few of the former ...
...

Great summary, thanks!... My bad!, by "comparing" I meant the end result, as in which system produces the cleanest records or best bang for the buck. For example, based on personal experience, you could compare AudioDesk to Elma-DIY (but I have a feeling that I already know the answer to that ).

 

[Neil.Antin]

Canna remember about the KLAudio.

KLA units now support swappable water tanks

Tim:

The KL Audio has two 50W transducers on each side, but the KL Audio does not have swappable tanks. The KL Audio does not permit use of any chemistry, and this has to do with it interfering with the water level sensors. FYI - the KL Audio stands out from the Degritter in a couple of areas. The KL Audio 2.4L reservoir is about 3X the UT tank ~0.78L volume. I suspect this is how it keeps temps in-check, but also why level sensing is so important - there is enough water in the reservoir to overfill the unit. With a UT tank volume of only 0.78L (someone recently measured) and 200W, the KL Audio is a very powerful unit.

And the new version with the remote reservoir and external submersible pump provides even more inherent cooling and the filtration is a batch process - no recirculation, so that the filtration efficiency (how much water is filtered) is 100%. In the DIY pump/filter systems that recirculate water - the efficiency (scientifically) is never 100%, but with enough time 99.9999..%. However, given that the KL Audio submersible pump is a centrifugal type, it could not handle the higher pressure drop (flow resistance) of a sub-micron absolute filter.

Otherwise, you summed up the differences nicely, other than to add that the DIY approach is much more flexible with use of chemistry. Neither the Degritter nor the KL Audio could ever use the amount of Tergitol 15-S-9 that you use in your P120H clean tank. And it's that combination of chemistry; the dual frequency and the many operating modes of the Elmasonic P-series; the fine filtration, and the 2nd UT rinse tank that you use that takes your process above that of the record cleaning enthusiast into the realm of an industry standard, precision cleaning process.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tima]

Otherwise, you summed up the differences nicely, other than to add that the DIY approach is much more flexible with use of chemistry. Neither the Degritter nor the KL Audio could ever use the amount of Tergitol 15-S-9 that you use in your P120H clean tank. And it's that combination of chemistry; the dual frequency and the many operating modes of the Elmasonic P-series; the fine filtration, and the 2nd UT rinse tank that you use that takes your process above that of the record cleaning enthusiast into the realm of an industry standard, precision cleaning process.

Thank you Neil for filling in the gaps about differences between DIY- Elma and desktop machines. Then there are less expensive tanks without dual frequency. We've seen considerable advances in vinyl cleaning over the past 10 years. (I give a lot of credit to Rainer Glass and Audiodesk for pioneering automation.) These advances support the long term value of thousands of record collections as we become curators for the future.

For example, based on personal experience, you could compare AudioDesk to Elma-DIY (but I have a feeling that I already know the answer to that ).

Yes, you probably do. You could check my DIY thread in this section of the forum, but Neil already gave it away, above. We're lucky to have his all-world-level expertise here to support our efforts.

 

[LeoDuran]

Yes, you probably do. You could check my DIY thread in this section of the forum, but Neil already gave it away, above. We're lucky to have his all-world-level expertise here to support our efforts.

Indeed!... I'm grateful to both of you! (this thread and the "tima's DIY RCM" are gems!)

 

[Achilles]

Hello.

Is there a risk of cleaning the same vinyl several times with ultra sound?

Thanks.

Philippe

 

[tima]

Hello.

Is there a risk of cleaning the same vinyl several times with ultra sound?

Thanks.

Philippe

Hi Phiippe,

I have cleaned the same record multiple times without harm from my DIY system.

That said I would be wary of cleaning the same record several times successively without allowing it to dry and cool down between cleanings.

Somewhere I asked the question: how do you know when to stop cleaning?

In the past there were a few times I so desperately wanted a record to be cleaner, quieter but repeated cleaning did not yield that result. I think we need to have faith in the cleaning process and recognize that cleaning cannot resurrect scratchy records.