Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained

[Neil.Antin]

While I cannot speak for Neil, I don't believe their is any speaking ill of KLaudio. Neil is stating facts about ultrasonic tanks in general. The message (to me anyway) is that ultrasonic tanks are a tool and when used correctly can do a fine job cleaning records, KLaudio included.

Edit: what Neil said above, I was writing when he posted.

Tim and @dminches,

Maybe in the interest of keeping this thread specific to the KL Audio Unit, that all posts in this thread that are more generic and not specific to the KL Audio be moved to this general thread - Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com)

Just a 'diplomatic' suggestion,

Neil

 

[tima]

Tim and @dminches,

Maybe in the interest of keeping this thread specific to the KL Audio Unit, that all posts in this thread that are more generic and not specific to the KL Audio be moved to this general thread - Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com)

Just a 'diplomatic' suggestion,

Neil

Fine by me.

Edit: threads do wander -- it will be work to keep each thread completely relevant

 

[XV-1]

You have taken what I said out of context. I am not saying that KL ultrasonic cleaner damaged records. I reference where someone used a DIY w/Elmasonic UT incorrectly and the record was damaged. The KL audio is an automated machine that has been well designed to operate w/o damaging a record.

Otherwise, this is nothing more than an intellectual discussion in response to someone challenging whether UT damages a record - read back on this thread; and maybe in hindsight, the conversation should have probably been moved to another thread.

Thanks. Yes it should have.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to go sorting back through threads to decipher off topic discussions.

Cheers

 

[djsina2]

@Neil.Antin what TDS meter do you recommend for purchase in the USA?

 

[Neil.Antin]

@Neil.Antin what TDS meter do you recommend for purchase in the USA?

COM-100 – hmdigital.com

You can buy: Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific, HM Digital COM-100 HMDCOM100 Waterproof EC/TDS And Amp Temperature Com – Fresh Water Systems, and eBay.

 

[Kingrex]

@Neil.Antin Totally off base question.
Can I flush and clean the Wirsbo pex piping in my home. I am about to change the Pure Master V700 whole house filters and felt it might be nice to purge my water piping first.

 

[Neil.Antin]

@Neil.Antin Totally off base question.
Can I flush and clean the Wirsbo pex piping in my home. I am about to change the Pure Master V700 whole house filters and felt it might be nice to purge my water piping first.

What are you wanting to flush?

1. If it's the pipe before the filter just follow what manufacturer says to do with a new charge - Vitasalus-PureMaster-V-Series-V-300-V-500-V-700-Installation-Instructions.pdf - Pre-Condition - see page 6. When you flush the tank with a new pre-filter - Option 1, you get high flow in the upstream piping to flush it. PEX pipe has a very low resistance to flow, so a good flush should easily remove any debris that may be on the pipe.

2. For piping downstream of the filter, after you install the new pre-filter and tank, and it has been pre-conditioned, then individually open every downstream cold-faucet wide open if you can, and flush for 15-60 seconds depending on how the faucet is from the tank; those closest 15-seconds, the furthest 60-sec. Start with the faucet furthest from the filter.

3. Flush your hot water heater also - it acts as settling tank and debris will settle to the bottom of the tank - you should have drain that has a standard water hose male fitting. Keep in mind - the water is hot - check you hot water manual for what they say.

Take care,

 

[Kingrex]

What are you wanting to flush?

1. If it's the pipe before the filter just follow what manufacturer says to do with a new charge - Vitasalus-PureMaster-V-Series-V-300-V-500-V-700-Installation-Instructions.pdf - Pre-Condition - see page 6. When you flush the tank with a new pre-filter - Option 1, you get high flow in the upstream piping to flush it. PEX pipe has a very low resistance to flow, so a good flush should easily remove any debris that may be on the pipe.

2. For piping downstream of the filter, after you install the new pre-filter and tank, and it has been pre-conditioned, then individually open every downstream cold-faucet wide open if you can, and flush for 15-60 seconds depending on how the faucet is from the tank; those closest 15-seconds, the furthest 60-sec. Start with the faucet furthest from the filter.

3. Flush your hot water heater also - it acts as settling tank and debris will settle to the bottom of the tank - you should have drain that has a standard water hose male fitting. Keep in mind - the water is hot - check you hot water manual for what they say.

Take care,

I want to flush after the filter. I have a circulation system. I have intant hot. I just wonder with 7 years of filtered water and no chlorine, has bacteria entered and attached on the walls. I do have a bypass and can flush municipal water through. I could let it run with city tap water for a week or two. It just seems like pipes should be cleaned at some time.
I also wonder about ultraviolet light.

 

[Neil.Antin]

I want to flush after the filter. I have a circulation system. I have intant hot. I just wonder with 7 years of filtered water and no chlorine, has bacteria entered and attached on the walls. I do have a bypass and can flush municipal water through. I could let it run with city tap water for a week or two. It just seems like pipes should be cleaned at some time.
I also wonder about ultraviolet light.

Caveat - I have no in depth experience with PEX tubing, but I have 40+ years of experience with fluid systems on Navy ships & submarines. So, after a quick read through these five documents:

WaterSense® New Home Specification Guide for Efficient Hot Water Delivery Systems, Version 1.2 (epa.gov)
Design Guide - Residential PEX Water Supply Plumbing Systems (huduser.gov)
MRPX-Domestic-Hot-Water-Recirculation-Systems-Doc-02.pdf (mrpexsystems.com)
331-658.pdf (wa.gov)
final_coronavirus-building-flushing-guidance.pdf (ct.gov)

Here are some takeaways:

1. The municipal water supply to your home is treated (chlorinated) and your whole house carbon filter should remove most of it.

2. A recirculation hot water system is not a closed-loop system. Every time you withdraw hot water, which is daily (unless on travel) cold, fresh, filtered water enters to make up what you used.

3. The absence of chlorine in the makeup water is a benefit to the PEX piping which is susceptible to chlorine attack but by commercial standards is designed for not less 50-yrs service (assuming fully qualified product is used).

4. PEX recirculation systems should be designed for flow velocity not more than 2-fps. This velocity is a bit marginal to keep pipes clean; 3-fps and above is the target. But if you open a faucet more than normal for just a few seconds you should temporarily achieve a high enough velocity to keep the pipes clean, in normal use.

5. Do not alarm yourself with what I am about to say - but absent the chlorine, under the right static temperature conditions >77F <108F, and the availability of air which your sealed system should not have much (other than what is dissolved) there is the risk of Legionnaires’ disease. The literature addresses keeping the cold water less than <74F and hot water >122F inhibits the bacteria growth. But remember, for your system this is risk is only if the plumbing is left in static (unused) condition for some time - how much time is hard to say for an unchlorinated system, but I suspect (only an opinion) that it is weeks versus days, or you would have likely already had a problem. Flushing procedures for a home are addressed in this document: final_coronavirus-building-flushing-guidance.pdf (ct.gov). Also note that faucets and fittings are generally copper, or copper-alloy (brass) and copper has natural antimicrobial properties (the hulls of boats/ships often have copper-based paints to control biofouling).

So, after all is said and done. Unless you suspect you have a problem: the water from the faucet in a clear glass inspected with flashlight against a white and black background is not clear or the water has a foul/objectionable odor - if it's not broke there appears no reason to fix it. As far as a UV light sterilizer Whole Home Water Treatment | Trojan Technologies, that would be based on whether you have concerns with your Municiple water supply.

Disclaimer: The accuracy of the information provided above is provided only as an opinion. No claim is made that the information has relevance to any specific design for which detailed specifications and drawings have not been provided. Any use of the information specified herein is at the sole discretion of the user, and at their own risk. No person or affiliate associated with the opinion addressed above will be liable for any injury to any person, animal, or ecosystem, or for damage to any item resulting from the use of any of the information described above.

If you require further assistance with this matter, please consult with the piping manufacturer and a qualified, licensed installer.

PS/Sorry for the formality of the response, but hopefully you can capture that your simple question far exceeds the mundane, trivial cleaning of a vinyl record.

 

[Kingrex]

Thank Nei

 

[djsina2]

One thing I noticed is it seems as though the KL does nothing for removing static. No matter what wash process I did with the Degritter it basically completely removed any static charge and then that was easy to maintain with my CSPort IME1. Any idea why the KL doesn’t yield the same results?

 

[Neil.Antin]

One thing I noticed is it seems as though the KL does nothing for removing static. No matter what wash process I did with the Degritter it basically completely removed any static charge and then that was easy to maintain with my CSPort IME1. Any idea why the KL doesn’t yield the same results?

Any wet cleaning process should remove any static charge from the record. So, any post wet cleaning static charge should be associated with the drying process. The Degritter has both variable time and variable fan speed (power). The KLAudio only has variable time. Try adjusting/lowering the dry time and see if that helps.

 

[djsina2]

Any wet cleaning process should remove any static charge from the record. So, any post wet cleaning static charge should be associated with the drying process. The Degritter has both variable time and variable fan speed (power). The KLAudio only has variable time. Try adjusting/lowering the dry time and see if that helps.

I’ve been using the 3 min setting which seems like the minimum to end up with no tiny droplets leftover. I’ll try 2 min though and see if anything changes.

 

[MarcelNL]

could grounding the water circuit help?

(no idea how that machine is made or if a water bath will maintain a static charge, I suspect it will)

 

[MarcelNL]

I just started cleaning my records (all vintage mono), first 6 are done and look stunningly new!

Muchos Gracias Neil for all the support and writing the book wet cleaning!

 

[LeoDuran]

With a 6-L, 40kHz unit, and 2-rpm, you should not clean more than 1-record at a time. For 2-records, 1.5-rpm is max, so a 1-rpm spinner is fine.

In general, if you add a pump/filter, do not use it when cleaning, use it when you stop cleaning and you are reloading the spinner. See the book XIV.15.3 for the equation to use to determine how long you need to operate the pump to filter the tank; it's not just simply the tank volume divided by the pump flow rate.

If you have the financial resources, the German made Elmasonic P60H dual frequency 37-kHz/80-kHz is pretty much the best available 6L US tank PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com). You get the best of both worlds - 37-kHz for the gross cleaning and 80-kHz for the fine particulate with variable power and pulse power options. @tima uses the P120H (12-L) for cleaning and then a lower cost 12-L Elmasonic unit for rinsing.

But, to get started, you can use the P60H with a no-rinse concentration of Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.003% to 0.005% to get just wetting and then operate 10-min at 37 kHz @ 75-90% power followed by 10-min at 80-kHz at 100% power with pulse.

There are obviously much cheaper Chinese US tanks available but keep in-mind not all power ratings are the same. The Elmasonic P-series are powerful units verified by how quickly they heat the tank with just US. As I wrote previous, I just worked with someone using the Elmasonic P60H and to allow serial cleaning we needed to add a pump & radiator.

As far as a pump & filter, if you have a ready supply of DIW, you can just refresh the tank frequently. How frequently depends on how dirty the records are. But just keep in-mind that after the first records, absent a filter, the follow-on records are spinning in the detritus removed from the previous records. Waiting until the bath is visibly dirty is too long. Bath management of US tanks is detail that needs attention if you want the best cleaning performance.

Keep us advised,

Neil

Hi Neil,
I'm considering a P60H and also the kits from CleanerVinyl (CV)... I'd like to keep it simple since I've never done US before, so a no-rinse solution sounds good to me!... Questions:
1) CV offers a "Micron filter", but based on your "quotes", it sounds like it would best to not use it while cleaning... Or perhaps not use it all, and simply replenish the tank with fresh/clean fluid... BTW, would you recommend the CV kits (eg. the "Pro")?
2) Can I use Water from an under-sink RO system that I already have at home (Apec RO-PH90)?
Thanks!

 

[Neil.Antin]

"Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.003% to 0.005% "... I presume the numbers refer to the concentration of the actual product, correct?... If so, how much do I need to add to a full tank of water? (with the goal being: not leaving surfactant on the record after cleaning... hence, no rinse is required)

The P60H is 6L, same as 6000 ml:
1. For 0.003% (same as 30-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00003) = 0.18-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
2. For 0.005% (same as 50-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00005) = 0.3-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
3. To make this easy - buy the Nalgene Drop Bottle Nalgene 2 oz. Leakproof Travel Dropper Bottle | The Container Store where each drop measures 0.04-ml. Transfer some Tergitol 15-S-9 (undiluted) to the Nalgene dropper bottle and for a no-rinse wetting solution add 5 to 7 drops to the P60H.

2) CV offers a "Micron filter", but based on your "quotes", it sounds like it would best to not use it while cleaning... Or perhaps not use it all, and simply replenish the tank with fresh/clean fluid... BTW, would you recommend the CV kits (eg. the "Pro")?

The pump/filter systems I recommend are in Chapter XIV of the book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press , and see Table XXIV UCM Pump-Filter System Parts List. Otherwise, the use of pump/filter while cavitating is based on the number of records you are cleaning at-once and how fast the spin speed - see the book para XIV.5.3.e. But this applies to when using 37-kHz. At 80-kHz, you can operate a pump/filter without decreasing the cavitation intensity. For the Elmasonic P-series, I generally recommend not running a pump/filter at 37-kHz but run it when operating at 80-kHz.

3) Can I use Water from an under-sink RO system that I already have at home (Apec RO-PH90)?

Does your RO unit have the re-mineralization filter RO-PH90 High Output pH+ Alkaline Calcium Mineral Drinking Water Filtration Systems by R.O. (Reverse Osmosis) | APEC Water (freedrinkingwater.com)? If yes, do not use for record cleaning unless you can pull water before the re-mineralization filter which is the last stage (6). If you are not using the re-mineralization filter or you pull water before it, measure the TDS Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific. If less than 5-ppm you can use it, or you can add after stage 5 a plumbing tee and valve to add a demineralizer for record cleaning - Deionization (DI) Media, Mixed Bed Color Changing Resin Replacement – LiquaGen Water. If you pump/filter the UT tank, monitor the bath TDS and replace when it reads not more than 10-ppm.

Good Luck,
Neil

 

[LeoDuran]

The P60H is 6L, same as 6000 ml:
1. For 0.003% (same as 30-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00003) = 0.18-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
2. For 0.005% (same as 50-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00005) = 0.3-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
3. To make this easy - buy the Nalgene Drop Bottle Nalgene 2 oz. Leakproof Travel Dropper Bottle | The Container Store where each drop measures 0.04-ml. Transfer some Tergitol 15-S-9 (undiluted) to the Nalgene dropper bottle and for a no-rinse wetting solution add 5 to 7 drops to the P60H.

The pump/filter systems I recommend are in Chapter XIV of the book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press , and see Table XXIV UCM Pump-Filter System Parts List. Otherwise, the use of pump/filter while cavitating is based on the number of records you are cleaning at-once and how fast the spin speed - see the book para XIV.5.3.e. But this applies to when using 37-kHz. At 80-kHz, you can operate a pump/filter without decreasing the cavitation intensity. For the Elmasonic P-series, I generally recommend not running a pump/filter at 37-kHz but run it when operating at 80-kHz.

Does your RO unit have the re-mineralization filter RO-PH90 High Output pH+ Alkaline Calcium Mineral Drinking Water Filtration Systems by R.O. (Reverse Osmosis) | APEC Water (freedrinkingwater.com)? If yes, do not use for record cleaning unless you can pull water before the re-mineralization filter which is the last stage (6). If you are not using the re-mineralization filter or you pull water before it, measure the TDS Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific. If less than 5-ppm you can use it, or you can add after stage 5 a plumbing tee and valve to add a demineralizer for record cleaning - Deionization (DI) Media, Mixed Bed Color Changing Resin Replacement – LiquaGen Water. If you pump/filter the UT tank, monitor the bath TDS and replace when it reads not more than 10-ppm.

Good Luck,
Neil

Awesome, thanks!

 

[MarcelNL]

I can report back that we did a test run with listening included last weekend, and two of my friends who both own a pretty high end record cleaning system (one is a Keith Monks, the other's name I forgot) were baffled by the look and sound of the various records we listened and then listened to after cleaning.

 

[LeoDuran]

The P60H is 6L, same as 6000 ml:
1. For 0.003% (same as 30-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00003) = 0.18-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
2. For 0.005% (same as 50-ppm), add (6000ml) x (.00005) = 0.3-ml of Tergitol which is 100% concentrated.
3. To make this easy - buy the Nalgene Drop Bottle Nalgene 2 oz. Leakproof Travel Dropper Bottle | The Container Store where each drop measures 0.04-ml. Transfer some Tergitol 15-S-9 (undiluted) to the Nalgene dropper bottle and for a no-rinse wetting solution add 5 to 7 drops to the P60H.

The pump/filter systems I recommend are in Chapter XIV of the book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press , and see Table XXIV UCM Pump-Filter System Parts List. Otherwise, the use of pump/filter while cavitating is based on the number of records you are cleaning at-once and how fast the spin speed - see the book para XIV.5.3.e. But this applies to when using 37-kHz. At 80-kHz, you can operate a pump/filter without decreasing the cavitation intensity. For the Elmasonic P-series, I generally recommend not running a pump/filter at 37-kHz but run it when operating at 80-kHz.

Does your RO unit have the re-mineralization filter RO-PH90 High Output pH+ Alkaline Calcium Mineral Drinking Water Filtration Systems by R.O. (Reverse Osmosis) | APEC Water (freedrinkingwater.com)? If yes, do not use for record cleaning unless you can pull water before the re-mineralization filter which is the last stage (6). If you are not using the re-mineralization filter or you pull water before it, measure the TDS Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific. If less than 5-ppm you can use it, or you can add after stage 5 a plumbing tee and valve to add a demineralizer for record cleaning - Deionization (DI) Media, Mixed Bed Color Changing Resin Replacement – LiquaGen Water. If you pump/filter the UT tank, monitor the bath TDS and replace when it reads not more than 10-ppm.

Good Luck,
Neil

Just a few follow-up questions (in the context of P60H, "no rinse", 10mim @37KHz+10 min@80KHz):
1) On the Degas: Do I add the Tergitol before or after?... Can I circulate the tank (Pump+Filter) while degassing?... What's the recommended Temperature at the start?... How much time should I set it for?
2) On the records: What is the recommended max number of records on a 6L tank, and minimum spacing between records?

(My apologies if these questions have been explicitly answered... I still have a bit to read ).
Thanks!