Who is the best reviewer?

[Phelonious Ponk]

Please let me have an idea of the prices of the caps you are taloking about .. I sincerely don't know ... Duelund .. Oh yes they are expensive ...
What do they do that other caps don't?
Has been proven that they are indeed superior? If yes, how?
Many more questions ... I will eave it at that for now ...

Even in cars there are numerous myths that a good quarter mile run quickly disproves? If you go to your friendly neighborhood Auto parts chain you're likely to find products that claim to reduce your consumption while increasing your horsepower ... Of course some people swear by these .. Do they really make a iota of difference in a car? Do we need to ask ?
So we also have myths in High End Audio and if I were a manufacturers I would go with what I think my public will buy ... I would not go against the grain like John Dunleavy did , telling them he didn't care about cables ...I would use the most expensive hook-up wire made by Belden marketed by one of the biggies in Audio Cables ... Why not? I will recoup my relatively expensive investment anyway ...

Frantz, your effort here is admirable but futile. The "high-end" audio business is quite unique, or perhaps its customer base is. They seem to be able to look right at the stopwatch, see that the hot-rodded Honda outran the Ferrari and still believe that the Ferrari is faster. And the more they pay for the Ferrari, the faster they believe it is. I really know of no other market quite like it. The man who buys the high-end watch does so because of its craftsmanship, history, subjective beauty. He doesn't need to convince himself that it is more accurate than the clock in his iPhone.

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

- Because I've never heard the value before. Everytime I've swapped in a super expensive cable vs. the good quality, simple copper stuff I primarily use, it's never better, maybe sometimes different though.

- I'm not an engineer, so take this as you will, but I've never read anything that's convinced me that some of the elaborate construction or exotic materials of some of the really expensive stuff adds anything over a good copper design. My BS detector goes off. And from an advertising/marketing staindpoint, something which is my business, the detector really screams.

- I open a good preamp for ex., let's take my ARC Ref 5. I see a ton of parts including wire, and a lot of design work. Then I see a piece of wire for the same $$$ -- there goes my BS detector again. And why/how is that speaker wire, at the end of a chain with a ton of wire already, transformative? If so, it points to a problem.

- Swapping out, say, the Ref 5 for a $2K preamp, I immediately here a difference and improvement. Usually easily discerned. Not my experience with cables. Further, I think a couple hundred bucks of room treatment, for ex. will always get you greater improvement than a couple thousand or more spent on cables. Bad value again.

- With so many variables/components in the equation, I really want cables that do nothing. My speaker choice, for ex., is my primary choice for how my system will sound (and it is the only one that interacts w/the room too) I don't want voicing from a cable, and I think that may be what alot of the expensive stuff does. I want this passive component to remain passive. And I don't see how the more expensive stuff gets closer to doing nothing.

I elaborate a bit on all this in this review:

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/supra-sword-speaker-cable-and-plydual-wire-review.php

Listen, other people's opinions on cable are fine with me. Last thing I want to do is start this old argument. I consider myself pragmatic, not dogmatic; after years in this hobby, years of listening, this is where I've arrived. I just don't see value in cables -- first and last from a sonic standpoint, and from others in between.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, if I'd had more time, I would have made this post shorter.

Maybe you didn't hear the right cable Robert

 

[microstrip]

- Because I've never heard the value before. Everytime I've swapped in a super expensive cable vs. the good quality, simple copper stuff I primarily use, it's never better, maybe sometimes different though.

Our experiences are quite different, but surely it is a just one more subjective opinion.

- I'm not an engineer, so take this as you will, but I've never read anything that's convinced me that some of the elaborate construction or exotic materials of some of the really expensive stuff adds anything over a good copper design. My BS detector goes off. And from an advertising/marketing staindpoint, something which is my business, the detector really screams.

Curious, when the same expensive “elaborate construction or exotic materials” are used in your electronics without advertisement you accept them.

- I open a good preamp for ex., let's take my ARC Ref 5. I see a ton of parts including wire, and a lot of design work. Then I see a piece of wire for the same $$$ -- there goes my BS detector again. And why/how is that speaker wire, at the end of a chain with a ton of wire already, transformative? If so, it points to a problem.

OK, we are now discussing perceived value in terms of raw labor and looks. Not sound quality. BTW, I also owned an ARC. Sounded great with Shunyata cables

- Swapping out, say, the Ref 5 for a $2K preamp, I immediately here a difference and improvement. Usually easily discerned. Not my experience with cables. Further, I think a couple hundred bucks of room treatment, for ex. will always get you greater improvement than a couple thousand or more spent on cables. Bad value again.

I am puzzled with this argument and although I do not agree with it, I can not miss to note that the same argument could be applied to every expensive equipment in your or my system. BTW do you believe in system synergy? Not always a 5K unit sounds better in a system than a 2K.

- With so many variables/components in the equation, I really want cables that do nothing. My speaker choice, for ex., is my primary choice for how my system will sound (and it is the only one that interacts w/the room too) I don't want voicing from a cable, and I think that may be what alot of the expensive stuff does. I want this passive component to remain passive. And I don't see how the more expensive stuff gets closer to doing nothing.

Curious. Why should the cables to be the only ones that do nothing? BTW, what is your definition of passive components? For me only tubes and semiconductors can be active in audio electronics.

I am currently trying to persuade myself that expensive cables are a mistake, but unhappily they sound better than the cheap ones I have tried in my system.

 

[fishnchips]

I am currently trying to persuade myself that expensive cables are a mistake, but unhappily they sound better than the cheap ones I have tried in my system.

John Le Carre put it best: "Ever bought a fake picture? The more you paid for it, the less inclined you are to believe it's a fake". Or words to that effect.

 

[ack]

@rblnr and @FrantzM - good on you mates! I couldn't agree more with you guys, and been advocating the same for years... Nicely done, thanks. Recently, I posted that I replaced my Kimber Hero XLRs used between my phono and preamp with a Nordost Tyr run; what I didn't mention is how much of a difference this particular change made - 1% at best; the rest was due to much lower humidity, to which MLs are very sensitive. Because I didn't expect a dramatic difference, I bought a pair from a guy that chopped down a 5m pair himself so as to finance his desired length, 0.6m - pretty smart on his side, if you ask me, and I paid 1/3 the list price. And I still paid too much... why? Take my VPI arm's Valhalla wiring, coincidentally; through VPI, it only adds $300 to the basic 10.5 arm's cost; so VPI isn't willing to pay stratospheric prices for this cable because apparently they can't be taken for a ride, so why should I...

PS: Suggest a 2000 Tertre Daugay Saint Emilion Grand Cru Classe... amazing wine for $39 or a lot more

 

[microstrip]

John Le Carre put it best: "Ever bought a fake picture? The more you paid for it, the less inclined you are to believe it's a fake". Or words to that effect.

Expectation bias and the influence of price has been discussed several times in this forum - nice to know John Le Carre also knew of it.

AFAIK his words were in the sense of "the less inclined you are to check its authenticity", not to believe it is a fake. BTW, it seems his words will only apply after you pay - I still have not paid for my cables.

His books are full of conspiracy - do you really believe that high-end is a just a gigantic world scale conspiracy lead by manufacturers, designers, sellers and reviewers, with the main purpose of cheating people who love sound reproduction?

 

[fishnchips]

No, just wannabes out for a quick buck. Cable sound varies, and this depends on many variables: length, gauge, metallurgy, physical assembly, shielding, choice and placement of dielectrics, crimping and solder, and what not. Some of these variables carry a cost penalty, some do not. This does not affect price. Price is fixed on perceived value, "fake good" reviews, market expectations, and an overwhelming desire for big markups and profit. No matter how you toss it, price is not one of these sound-related variables.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Cogs

Looking at the innards of these fabulous GTE-Audio DACs, the cost-of-goods-sold must be spectacular. Each channel has 16 expensive DACs in it. The build quality, the connectors, the finish, are all exceptional.

The labor costs in Germany are astronomical compared to much of the world, and all the R&D cost has to be recovered from a very small total available market. Breaking even, let alone making a profit, is not a foregone conclusion, but the designer, Dietman Braeuer has the satisfaction of having built a true statement product.

And the DAC certainly delivers the sonic goods.

At $70K, US pricing, these DACs cost about the same as a higher-end turntable, tonearm(s), cartridge and phono amp. The DACs have attenuation and input switching, so one doesn't need a preamp or transport. Just the amps and speakers, and away you go.

Seems to me that in this case you get everything you paid for, expect, and deserve. It will take quite a while to figure out how to characterize their sound.

 

[fishnchips]

At $70K, US pricing

For a moment there I thought you were writing about the US designed and built Metric Halo ULN-8, but the price woke me up. The MH comes at less than 1/10th of that price.

 

[FrantzM]

HI

It will never ceased to amze me how much we, audiophiles are willing to "convince" some would say to delude ourselves ... Could you please tell me the price of the "expensive" DACS? $200 each? This would be an interesting exercise to guess the total for parts in such products.. I am not sure it would be as high as you would like to think. Now, I don't equate the value of a product to the sum of its innards but please don't use the cost of parts as a rational for the price of a product ... The relationship is tenuous as best and clearly a flailing attempt at rationalizing the stratospheric price of favored products.
What comes clear to me ,as clear as it can, similar to the proverbial "Night and Day" quasi-epiphany so familiar to audiophiles is the following:
The Audiophile Market is like no other. Nowhere but in this hobby people are willing to suspend disbelief to accept ANY price once they find a way to convince themselves. Things that can't work sell for a premium .. The company selling said products are not penalized and actually it becomes almost a badge of honor to show that you heard something or a difference when there is or can't be none (Magic Pebbles, Lossless Black Body, Tice Clock, Harmonix Kombat dots. mpingo blocks, etc). The market goes on buying ever more expensive items with a lemming-like singe-mindedness .. while clamoring that they are not that expensive considering what they do ...

As Spock would have said ..
Fascinating!!

 

[fishnchips]

FWIW, the motto of the German company that Mr. Bedworth mentioned is "LUXURY one can hear" (or "... than can be heard"). The word "Luxury" (LUXUS in German) is displayed in very large typeface.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Frantz, your effort here is admirable but futile. The "high-end" audio business is quite unique, or perhaps its customer base is. They seem to be able to look right at the stopwatch, see that the hot-rodded Honda outran the Ferrari and still believe that the Ferrari is faster. And the more they pay for the Ferrari, the faster they believe it is. I really know of no other market quite like it. The man who buys the high-end watch does so because of its craftsmanship, history, subjective beauty. He doesn't need to convince himself that it is more accurate than the clock in his iPhone.

Tim

Nope. It's precisely the same set of motivators all round. That's 'motivators' plural, not singular. There are label junkies in every field - if watch collectors were really passionate about the craftsmanship of the horologist, there would be a lot more Grand Seikos and far fewer U-Boats or Panerais sold, and Omega would be advertising the quality of the Co-Axial Calibre 8501 and 8521 movements instead of pointing to George Clooney's and Nicole Kidman's respective wrist-candy. But there are people who buy fine watches on more than just the surface appeal, just as there are wine enthusiasts, car buffs, audiophiles, gun collectors, cigar aficionados, camera buyers, guitar nuts, bike fiends and hobbyists from all other fields who demand more from their purchases than just a label.

Some people buy expensive things because they are expensive, some buy them because they are better. What constitutes 'better' varies with the individual and the hobby. In audio, that 'better' can mean a collection of pretty boxes, or it can mean a wider frequency response, lower distortion and larger dynamic range at a broad range of volume levels, or a nebulous, I-know-it-when-I-hear-it cover-all 'musicality'. It can be a sound that acts as a simulacrum of the Met, the Musikverein or the Hammersmith Odeon, a sound that encompasses and enfolds the listener in music, or bathes and pampers the music-lover, or puts them in front of the mixing desk. It can be all these things and more. In years of doing this, the only thing I can really say about it all is the one-size-fits-all approach seldom fits anyone for long.

Real people have an alarming, wonderful habit of liking different things in all walks of life, irrespective of whether such differences can be detected by the cold searchlight of objectivity. It's how we fall for our loved ones, how we choose what we use to drive to work, what we eat, wear, do, play, watch and listen to. While you might want to attribute these decisions to the masterful technique of sales people, let's get real. This is high-end audio we're talking about; How do audio salespeople (who are often so socially inept that they think wearing their breakfast on a shirt represents acceptable dress codes for a client-facing role) get to be the super-sales professionals who can sell a $500 sound for $500,000? It seems more likely that they could turn a $500,000 sale into a $500 one through sheer weight of personal hygiene issues. And yet people still buy expensive audio, even from pungent salespeople with bizarre hair. They can't all be just buying bling, can they?

Or maybe Porsche are missing a trick... perhaps the guy with the ill-fitting suit, ill-fitting teeth and breath that could anesthetize a rhino at 20 paces is the perfect person to sell that new Panamera Turbo S after all.

 

[Randall Smith]

Looking at the innards of these fabulous GTE-Audio DACs, the cost-of-goods-sold must be spectacular. Each channel has 16 expensive DACs in it. The build quality, the connectors, the finish, are all exceptional.

The labor costs in Germany are astronomical compared to much of the world, and all the R&D cost has to be recovered from a very small total available market. Breaking even, let alone making a profit, is not a foregone conclusion, but the designer, Dietman Braeuer has the satisfaction of having built a true statement product.

And the DAC certainly delivers the sonic goods.

At $70K, US pricing, these DACs cost about the same as a higher-end turntable, tonearm(s), cartridge and phono amp. The DACs have attenuation and input switching, so one doesn't need a preamp or transport. Just the amps and speakers, and away you go.

Seems to me that in this case you get everything you paid for, expect, and deserve. It will take quite a while to figure out how to characterize their sound.

Are you speaking as someone who would pay 70K for this product? If not, you really cannot make such a statement. This product and this statement is what is wrong with Hi-end audio and why people feel so negatively about reviewers.

 

[fishnchips]

Neither those who make exquisite

wrist-candy

nor those who like it or buy it will ever claim that it tracks time better. If asked, they would unanimously say that it is merely "good enough" as a watch, and the rest is jewelry. Makers of audio candy will not concede as much, and neither will your magazine.

 

[KeithR]

Looking at the innards of these fabulous GTE-Audio DACs, the cost-of-goods-sold must be spectacular. Each channel has 16 expensive DACs in it. The build quality, the connectors, the finish, are all exceptional.

The labor costs in Germany are astronomical compared to much of the world, and all the R&D cost has to be recovered from a very small total available market. Breaking even, let alone making a profit, is not a foregone conclusion, but the designer, Dietman Braeuer has the satisfaction of having built a true statement product.

And the DAC certainly delivers the sonic goods.

At $70K, US pricing, these DACs cost about the same as a higher-end turntable, tonearm(s), cartridge and phono amp. The DACs have attenuation and input switching, so one doesn't need a preamp or transport. Just the amps and speakers, and away you go.

Seems to me that in this case you get everything you paid for, expect, and deserve. It will take quite a while to figure out how to characterize their sound.

The problem with DACs---- is your 70k Rolls Royce DAC will be worth less than 5k in 4 years due to changing DAC technology. tough sell imo. I will take a 70k 911 instead

 

[KeithR]

Are you speaking as someone who would pay 70K for this product? If not, you really cannot make such a statement. This product and this statement is what is wrong with Hi-end audio and why people feel so negatively about reviewers.

Indeed---whats your accommodation price Nicholas? Did you purchase said unit?

 

[microstrip]

(...) Cable sound varies, and this depends on many variables: length, gauge, metallurgy, physical assembly, shielding, choice and placement of dielectrics, crimping and solder, and what not. Some of these variables carry a cost penalty, some do not. This does not affect price. Price is fixed on perceived value, "fake good" reviews, market expectations, and an overwhelming desire for big markups and profit. No matter how you toss it, price is not one of these sound-related variables.

We are arriving somewhere. You accept that cable sound varies, but there is no connection between the sound cable quality and price of development, manufacturing and distribution. Manufacturers would deliberately make their lower price cables sound worst than the expensive ones to keep this scale monotonic. And to avoid unfair competition between brands we must have a superstructure that supervises the high-end market and punishes those who try to break the scheme. I find it difficult to believe.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

The title COGS or cost of goods sold should give a hint as to the main point of the post: The retail pricing of the GTE-Audio Trinity DACs is quite rationally related to its parts and assembly cost. Those of us with electronics manufacturing experience understand the ratios that inexorably obtain the COGS and the price to the dealer.

And yes, the Trinity DAC is certainly a luxury product, and just as their promotional material states, it's luxury that one can most definitely hear. This kind of reference gear is extremely useful to reviewers, as it gives them the vocabulary to describe how other products sound in comparison. For those who can afford it, these DACs really deliver the sonic goods. And for those who can't, there are alternatives at the $20K and $5K levels that have many virtues, just not quite as many virtues as the most expensive DACs.

Clearly there's a place for DACs at all price levels, according to one's circumstances. An competent but inexpensive DAC in a mid-range system will give tremendous musical enjoyment. Placing that DAC in a high-end system quickly reveals any limitations; too expensive a DAC in a budget system is not cost-effective, although it may well show that the budget system, with a really good source, can sound a lot better than one might expect.

Looking at the used DAC market, iconic products, with excellent value and performance, such as the Berkeley Audio Design, seem to sell for close to list price years after their original manufacture. How about a Pacific Microsonics DAC?

The number of people willing to part with either of these products, during the owner's lifetime, seems to be quite limited. For a very high end product, who knows, because the market is so small, but for the years that one owns such a product, you will most definitely have a grin from ear to ear.

The high retail price of the Trinity, the manufacturing cost, and the sonic results are all commensurate. Thus, for the rich, there's a completely appropriate exchange of value: Lots of money in delivers wonderful, superior, standard-setting, sound out. That an electronic device can sound so natural, so effortless, so totally convincing, is remarkable, and challenges other to do better, or to do as well as a lower price. All this is very good indeed, from my perspective as an audio enthusiast.

And that, gentle readers, is that.

 

[Bruce B]

Looking at the used DAC market, iconic products, with excellent value and performance, such as the Berkeley Audio Design, seem to sell for close to list price years after their original manufacture. How about a Pacific Microsonics DAC?

Don't know why... I really didn't like either one. There are plenty of others that clearly sound better... Playback Designs, Digital Audio Denmark, Forsell, Grimm, StageTech.. etc....

 

[amirm]

Neither those who make exquisitenor those who like it or buy it will ever claim that it tracks time better.

Don't you think they would if it did? High-end equipment often does have better specifications so it becomes part of the selling points. A high-end amp that puts out 1,200 watts vs a mass market one that puts out 100 watts, does have an advantage that can be talked about regardless of other factors related to luxury buying.