Zero Distortion: The General's System - Pnoe, Thomas Mayer, Vyger, Original LPs

[Audiophile Bill]

That Lotus Granada was a good sounding speaker at several shows years ago. Kind of a one-off, hence the high price though.

Funnily enough the General made the exact same comment to me!! Think he rates the Granada too.

 

[Folsom]

I think actually that might be standard vented cabinet as per below:

They look aperiodic, not vented.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

They look aperiodic, not vented.

Yes you are right - you can see some material stuffed into the vent

 

[DaveC]

Dave, why do you prefer a ported box to a sealed box for bass reproduction? Is it about efficiency, tone, or something else?

Far less driver excursion is required for a ported cabinet to achieve the same SPLs vs sealed.

How much this matters depends a lot on how much frequency range the woofer covers; the more it covers the more IMD or intermodulation distortion is an issue. So for pure subs I've gotten good results building sealed cabs, but the output is limited vs a ported cab. Driver quality is most important though, and these days it's possible to get extremely clean, low distortion bass out of ported cabs with many modern woofers. For some things I think they sound better, like kick drums, some things sealed might be better but I don't think one is always better vs another, it's really about the driver.

 

[DaveC]

Hi Dave,

Honestly there is no comparison between the AER 3 and 4 let alone 4 and 5....

Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah... I can't hear you, sorry!

In terms of bass driver integration, what bass drivers would you suggest to keep up with an AER and what cabinet and crossover. I ask because I am designing a horn system right now so very curious and hungry for data points.

There's some new woofers I haven't tested that have amazing specs a friend just told me about, will have to see if I can find that info...

From everything I've tested so far the Acoustic Elegance TD15/18 H+ are amazing. Avalon used the 15H in the Tesseract and the H+ has a much larger motor and stiffer cone, it's far better vs the H imo, so that gives you some idea... I think the Tess uses 4 per speaker though.

I need the woofer to play cleanly up into the low mids, so I didn't test anything that won't do that. Currently I'm using the 15H+ in a 5 cuft ported box tuned at 21 Hz, and it's pretty amazing.

I tend to like steeper xo slopes on woofs, but in my current application I have a moderately steep rolloff of my mid driver due to a combination of acoustic and electronic xos so matching the mid was my main criteria for woofer xo.

Good luck on the horn, I know getting the sound seamless isn't easy... One thing to pay attention to is the tone of the drivers. I've had some mismatches that I thought might be due to the crossover or another aspect of the overall design, but when I found drivers that had the same kind of tone the issues simply disappeared. So it's not necessarily that woofers can't keep up or tweeters can't blend in... it may be they sound nothing like the other drivers you're using. I've been noticing this more on cone n dome speakers, YG and Verity seemed to have this aspect down pretty well and their speakers sound the most coherent I've heard from that kind of speaker.


EDIT: Check out Austin Acoustics horn system too... their bass cab worked great with their horns imo.

http://www.austinacoustic.net/

 

[MRJAZZ]

Old Acoustat panels are one of the best full-range drivers ever invented I think.

Concur........especially with a direct drive ESL amp........

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah... I can't hear you, sorry!




There's some new woofers I haven't tested that have amazing specs a friend just told me about, will have to see if I can find that info...

From everything I've tested so far the Acoustic Elegance TD15/18 H+ are amazing. Avalon used the 15H in the Tesseract and the H+ has a much larger motor and stiffer cone, it's far better vs the H imo, so that gives you some idea... I think the Tess uses 4 per speaker though.

I need the woofer to play cleanly up into the low mids, so I didn't test anything that won't do that. Currently I'm using the 15H+ in a 5 cuft ported box tuned at 21 Hz, and it's pretty amazing.

I tend to like steeper xo slopes on woofs, but in my current application I have a moderately steep rolloff of my mid driver due to a combination of acoustic and electronic xos so matching the mid was my main criteria for woofer xo.

Good luck on the horn, I know getting the sound seamless isn't easy... One thing to pay attention to is the tone of the drivers. I've had some mismatches that I thought might be due to the crossover or another aspect of the overall design, but when I found drivers that had the same kind of tone the issues simply disappeared. So it's not necessarily that woofers can't keep up or tweeters can't blend in... it may be they sound nothing like the other drivers you're using. I've been noticing this more on cone n dome speakers, YG and Verity seemed to have this aspect down pretty well and their speakers sound the most coherent I've heard from that kind of speaker.


EDIT: Check out Austin Acoustics horn system too... their bass cab worked great with their horns imo.

http://www.austinacoustic.net/

Thanks a lot as ever, Dave!

 

[Cantus]

Cantus, you seem quite knowledgeable. May I ask what speakers and amps you are using, and are you also located in the land of food?

Hi Ked, not that knowledgeable, just a long term fan of Yamamura! My system's currently in flux, having used many of the obvious contenders over the years, I'm now working towards a custom "full-range" design preferably driven with transimpedance amps, though I am quite fond of some of Joachim Gerhard's and John Devore's speakers. I'm in the land of Brexit, but I do love food!

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

Even Jeffrey_t tolerated my system.

. . .

I liked your system too!

 

[Joe Cohen]

One of the best speakers I've ever heard. Still available afaik!

I believe it uses $50k Feastrex field coil drivers.

Hi Dave,

Still available for audition.
Read the ravings of this madman about the Granada in its current state here:
https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/blog
Scroll down til you see this picture.
The system will be down for a while as we will be updating the cones on the Feastrex Field Coil Drivers. But please contact us through the website if you fancy a listen.

 

[Simone]

Great writing, Kedar.

Boy am I glad I don’t collect classical LPs . My most expensive LP cost $120 and it took me several years to commit.

I never read in such articles about classical records from Eterna or Philips. They are also phantastic sounding and much more inexpensive than those hyped labels. And one assessment: if I would own 300.000 records I won't mind the damage caused by using SPU, a really great sounding cartridge. Despite this a really brilliant review of a great Chain. @ Ked: I' m waiting for reviews of big western electric Systems

 

[bonzo75]

I never read in such articles about classical records from Eterna or Philips. They are also phantastic sounding and much more inexpensive than those hyped labels. And one assessment: if I would own 300.000 records I won't mind the damage caused by using SPU, a really great sounding cartridge. Despite this a really brilliant review of a great Chain. @ Ked: I' m waiting for reviews of big western electric Systems

Hi he has a lot of Eterna and Philips. And many other labels that are not hyped up that sound fantastic. The objective of the article was not to expose people to labels

 

[morricab]

Hi Dave,

Honestly there is no comparison between the AER 3 and 4 let alone 4 and 5. I really didn’t want to believe it as I was set to get 4s but the improvement of the 5 is very large. Ask Kedar as he has heard both a lot like me - sounds like a totally new speaker and I promise I don’t exaggerate. In terms of “need” - well the whole hobby at this level isn’t so much about “need” as shooting for the best.

In terms of bass driver integration, what bass drivers would you suggest to keep up with an AER and what cabinet and crossover. I ask because I am designing a horn system right now so very curious and hungry for data points.

I am quite fond of TQWT or even DTQWT designs to have the speed of a horn (you can use light fast drivers) and some of the weight of s vented box as it is a cross between horn and bass reflex.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I never read in such articles about classical records from Eterna or Philips. They are also phantastic sounding and much more inexpensive than those hyped labels. And one assessment: if I would own 300.000 records I won't mind the damage caused by using SPU, a really great sounding cartridge. Despite this a really brilliant review of a great Chain. @ Ked: I' m waiting for reviews of big western electric Systems

Do you not feel that we essentially “rent” vinyl through the course of our lives before it transitions hopefully to a new home for next generations and thus we should have a duty of care to preserve these original pressings? The fact the General cares so much about each and every one of his 300k+ is a testament to his philosophy / care for the recorded arts imho.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Do you not feel that we essentially “rent” vinyl through the course of our lives before it transitions hopefully to a new home for next generations and thus we should have a duty of care to preserve these original pressings? The fact the General cares so much about each and every one of his 300k+ is a testament to his philosophy / care for the recorded arts imho.

I feel much the same way about our entire planet... we are but simple renters, so beautifully said Bill.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you not feel that we essentially “rent” vinyl through the course of our lives before it transitions hopefully to a new home for next generations and thus we should have a duty of care to preserve these original pressings? The fact the General cares so much about each and every one of his 300k+ is a testament to his philosophy / care for the recorded arts imho.

I am willing to procreate if the only reason he does not give me the ones I want is that I cannot pass it down to next generations

 

[the sound of Tao]

Small sacrifices Ked for the greater good!

 

[Simone]

A possible view on this issue. Maybe I am to egocentric. On the other hand I'm too much in love with my SPU A and the kind it creates music. The kind records handled in the report feels to me a little bit artificial. And I am honest: I don't like people on fairs who take out records out of the cover with tongs. Records are vivid and transitory (as tubes). Doesn't mean that I don't handle them with care.
But this is my personal attitude

 

[zerostargeneral]

Dear all,

thank you very much to those that understand my drive as part of a group, to complete an archive that will outlive mankind as we currently are. The humour provided by the non English speaking fraternity is outstanding.

We in the group are pleasantly surprised that not all accomplished individuals are self loving single cell amoeba. It took 100,000 years of human exploit and development to achieve the minute window known to everyone as the golden-era.

Our respect for what this took to achieve is our soul driver, we will be long dead when this body of work will be unearthed most likely by the unearthly.

On a lighter note a special thank you to Ron Resnick, Khun Tang and Jeffrey T; for their most gracious donations to charity. As such they make our new year's honours list and will receive an ERC title each (see below).

Kindest regards, G.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Red Coltrane - Jeffrey