Active Anti-vibration Platforms : Accurion i4 and Herzan TS150

[spiritofmusic]

The i4large is really the only practical size for any tt of reasonably large footprint. My Trans Fi Salvation needs to be side by side w/my Soundsmith Straingauge energizer box meaning I need at least 24" wide ie 600mm, and the i4large only fits the bill.
I can get a 600mm x 600mm Spiers And Robertson lab grade air rolling platform (isolating good to 3Hz)/slate spiked table or wall shelf/Symposium Acoustics Ultra shelf for the same price at the i4large.
Sorry if this looks like a pitch for the Spiers, that's not my intention, just that there are some seriously engineered solutions out there that can be had for less money.

 

[shakti]

since a couple of days, I am using the "Accuriuon i4 large" platform with success.
Having had the Taiko Tana Table Stable (Herzan) TS 140 version before (with standard PSU), the decision to try out the Accordion as well was done soon.

The 2 platforms do use different technology , TS 140 is piezo controlled, the i4 is more analogue technology (similar to the technology table stable used before).

As I sometimes had problems with hum and noise due to the integrated switch mode PSU of the TS 140, I was expecting a more quiet situation with the I4, which I definitely got. Dead silence!

Having spoken to Accurion in Germany, they rejected my Idea of adding a "Panzerholz" top to the i4, as they believe, this might effect the active control of the i4, which seem to be adjusted to the standard top platter.

As active platforms do work "only" between 0,5hz and 200hz, a better resonance control in higher frequencies might become a challenge than.I was looking forward to find out!

The i4 large has the size I need, so I can ad the Micro seiki SX 8000 MKII plus my external Dereneville motor (the Dereneville will become another story in a different thread)

Adding the i4 large means, that I replaced the 8000'er from the original Micro Seiki BA-600 Air suspension base to the active controlled i4.
(my Micro Seiki RX 5000 is now placed on the BA-600)

The i4 setting was done fast and the result was impressive. Compared to BA-600 it is a little bit like sharpening the picture, like getting the focus on the picture right.
Everything becomes more precise and the contrast increases. The "blackness" is impressive. Much better , that TS-140 due to my hum and noise problem.

I am currently using the Koetsu Onyx and the vdh Stradivarius carts. An interesting experience is, that the Stradivarius is much more responding on active control than the Koetsu.

It is easy to switch the i4 on and off, the difference with the Stradivarius is huge, with the Koetsu still big, but not that big

Biggest difference in my system in bass resolution and contour .

The TS-140 liked the usage of active grounding, much lower noise floor and better resolution .

Doing active grounding with Taiko D1 or D2 on the Accurion i4 platform was without a positive effect. The sound becomes even a little bit dull.
So the base Design of i4 is "good" as it is. (still, I like to try another external PSU)

To optimize the frequency range above 200hz , I tried several damping material on the top platter of the i4.

I believe, that I have to try even more, but with the Sicomin Silencer

http://www.mwaudio.de/audioplan-sicomin-secrets


I was able to extend the level of better and more precise resolution to the higher frequencies as well. I placed 2 Sicomin Silencer in each corner and in the middle of the top Platter. Adding more makes the sound slow and is killing dynamics.

On the Top platter are also two Taiko active grounding (Panzerholz) boxes placed, the sonic result of adding a certain weight of wood to the top was audible (positive) as well. The active grounding part of the Taiko D1 is going to the Tonearm bases, which (in my system) gives a good result, specially on the Ikeda 407.

looking forward to get access to a better external PSU, but the current status us absolutely satisfying!

 

[CKKeung]

since a couple of days, I am using the "Accuriuon i4 large" platform with success.
Having had the Taiko Tana Table Stable (Herzan) TS 140 version before (with standard PSU), the decision to try out the Accordion as well was done soon.
The 2 platforms do use different technology , TS 140 is piezo controlled, the i4 is more analogue technology (similar to the technology table stable used before).
As I sometimes had problems with hum and noise due to the integrated switch mode PSU of the TS 140, I was expecting a more quiet situation with the I4, which I definitely got. Dead silence!
Having spoken to Accurion in Germany, they rejected my Idea of adding a "Panzerholz" top to the i4, as they believe, this might effect the active control of the i4, which seem to be adjusted to the standard top platter.
As active platforms do work "only" between 0,5hz and 200hz, a better resonance control in higher frequencies might become a challenge than.I was looking forward to find out!
The i4 large has the size I need, so I can ad the Micro seiki SX 8000 MKII plus my external Dereneville motor (the Dereneville will become another story in a different thread)
Adding the i4 large means, that I replaced the 8000'er from the original Micro Seiki BA-600 Air suspension base to the active controlled i4.
(my Micro Seiki RX 5000 is now placed on the BA-600)
The i4 setting was done fast and the result was impressive. Compared to BA-600 it is a little bit like sharpening the picture, like getting the focus on the picture right.
Everything becomes more precise and the contrast increases. The "blackness" is impressive. Much better , that TS-140 due to my hum and noise problem.
I am currently using the Koetsu Onyx and the vdh Stradivarius carts. An interesting experience is, that the Stradivarius is much more responding on active control than the Koetsu.
It is easy to switch the i4 on and off, the difference with the Stradivarius is huge, with the Koetsu still big, but not that big
Biggest difference in my system in bass resolution and contour .
The TS-140 liked the usage of active grounding, much lower noise floor and better resolution .
Doing active grounding with Taiko D1 or D2 on the Accurion i4 platform was without a positive effect. The sound becomes even a little bit dull.
So the base Design of i4 is "good" as it is. (still, I like to try another external PSU)
To optimize the frequency range above 200hz , I tried several damping material on the top platter of the i4.
I believe, that I have to try even more, but with the Sicomin Silencer
http://www.mwaudio.de/audioplan-sicomin-secrets
I was able to extend the level of better and more precise resolution to the higher frequencies as well. I placed 2 Sicomin Silencer in each corner and in the middle of the top Platter. Adding more makes the sound slow and is killing dynamics.
On the Top platter are also two Taiko active grounding (Panzerholz) boxes placed, the sonic result of adding a certain weight of wood to the top was audible (positive) as well. The active grounding part of the Taiko D1 is going to the Tonearm bases, which (in my system) gives a good result, specially on the Ikeda 407.
looking forward to get access to a better external PSU, but the current status us absolutely satisfying!

Hello Shakti,

Congratulation!
The Herzan platform is particularly effective to "non-springy/non-floating" type of turntables.

Replacing its external switching psu to a linear psu is a must! The sonic improvement is immediately audible.

BTW, the Setchi groundboxes give better sound when they are placed in an upright posture. Please try this for yours. May be the effect is diff bcos of the Herzan.
Have you compared D1 vs D2? I personally always prefer D2 but diff systems may have diff response.
Some friends of mine use Tripoint Troy Signature groundbox for grounding their LP setup, but Setchi is of course having much better C/P ratio.

CK

 

[spiritofmusic]

Shakti, I'm pretty biased because Stacore passive beat Kuraka active in my system, but you owe it to y'self to at least consider Stacore before deciding on Accurion. At 2/3 cost, and roughly 50% better than active, it's a no brainer in my system.
And could be in yours.

 

[EuroDriver]

A very interesting post by Shakti !

Of particular interest to us is that the Setchi's are negatively impacted by being on the I4 top plate. We suspect that strong magnetic fields near a Setchi have a negative impact on Setchi's doing what we want them to do. As Shakti pointe out, the Accurions use electromagnetic voice coils as the servos, whereas the Tana uses piezo transducers

As to a revisit to Shati, it will take a while.

We are finding that for the Linear Power Supply for the Tana based on the TS-150, the degree which we can further improve the sonic results with better and better power supplies is much more than we expected. So the investigation and push for further sonic improvement continues !

 

[microstrip]

(...) We are finding that for the Linear Power Supply for the Tana based on the TS-150, the degree which we can further improve the sonic results with better and better power supplies is much more than we expected. So the investigation and push for further sonic improvement continues !

Did you find any technical reasons and measurements to explain why are sonic improvements with "better" power supplies or are you mainly using subjective findings obtained when listening ?

 

[EuroDriver]

Did you find any technical reasons and measurements to explain why are sonic improvements with "better" power supplies or are you mainly using subjective findings obtained when listening ?

As we have gotten to know the inner workings of the active tables, we had an aha moment and realized how significant the quality of the power supply to the anti-vibration table could be. We then tested out several different linear power supplies and we have heard easily distinguishable differences between them. The test system which we use in Hengelo has gotten very good over the months, and we can hear pretty much everything.

So now we are doing an ultimate linear power supply for powering the Tana. Will it be worth the extra cost we don't know, but we have to try !

 

[Ron Resnick]

As we have gotten to know the inner workings of the active tables, we had an aha moment and realized how significant the quality of the power supply to the anti-vibration table could be. We then tested out several different linear power supplies and we have heard easily distinguishable differences between them. The test system which we use in Hengelo has gotten very good over the months, and we can hear pretty much everything.

So now we are doing an ultimate linear power supply for powering the Tana. Will it be worth the extra cost we don't know, but we have to try !

How does your outboard linear power supply compare to the optional outboard linear power supply offered by Herzan? What are the differences in actual design and in theory?

 

[EuroDriver]

Hi Ron,

I didn't know that Herzan offered an outboard LPS. I do know that they do offer an outboard SMPS which Table Stable (Switzerland) source from Pro-Tek in Taiwan. We have one of these Pro-Teks, and we did not find that it sounded significantly better than the inboard SMPS.

In our various LPS developments, we are paying a lot of attention to low ripple, fast response, and vibration decoupling. For scientific applications, you only have to deal with building vibrations and foot traffic. In a stereo system with loudspeakers and subwoofers, then we need to reduce as much as possible how the sound waves coming from the speaker and subs can affect the power supply box and its contents. There are a lot of vibration sensitive components inside a power supply.

 

[EuroDriver]

So here is a picture of the Taiko LPS for the Tana anti-vibration tables

The LPS is a dual choke design with very quiet Schottky rectifiers, Mundorf caps throughout, and a Belleson regulator. The vibration attenuation is extreme, with a copper plate chassis and a bathtub top enclosure CNC machined from 3 layers of 40 mm Panzerholz. The production cost ? You don't want to ask. The LPS itself is sitting on a 40 mm Panzerholz plinthe

How does it sound ? Let me just say we were very, very, surprised. For sure the nature of the improvement will be very system dependent, but we could not stop listening.

We are doing some final adjustments and then we will be shipping it to Mike Lavigne

 

[Tubedoctor]

is there anybody who tried the active silencer base?

 

[spiritofmusic]

A few reasons why many won’t have.
It’s effectively an Accurion i4 dressed up more prettily, for a serious financial surcharge, and Accurion is plenty pricey as it stands.
It’s not self-levelling which defeats a big part of the attraction of active.
It’s footprint at 19” x 17” is too small for many high end tts, esp those that need motor/controller alongside.
I believe it sounds no better or worse than the 33% cheaper Accurion i4.

 

[pleroma]

Having just learned of active isolation, and from what I've gleaned from skimming several threads, is it safe to say this is not a cost-effective approach for second-story residential?

 

[EuroDriver]

Having just learned of active isolation, and from what I've gleaned from skimming several threads, is it safe to say this is not a cost-effective approach for second-story residential?

Hi Pleroma,

We have had quite a bit of experience now with the active anti-vibration platform in different settings and are takeaways are as follows

- The equipment which active anti-vibration will have the largest effect are turntables and DAC's followed by pre & poweramps, and music servers

- The low frequency vibration reduction in an audio system with speakers playing at normal listen levels is about - 25 dB from 0.5 Hz to about 100 Hz. You get this level of reduction if you are on a rock solid floor or a suspended wood floor on a upper floor.

- the surprising consistent result, is that the quality of the LPS supplying the Taiko / Herzan and the vibration control and management of the LPS itself makes a very audible difference to the system playback

- the difference active anti-vibration makes the MSB Select II is jaw dropping in a system like Mike Lavigne's

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Having just learned of active isolation, and from what I've gleaned from skimming several threads, is it safe to say this is not a cost-effective approach for second-story residential?

i know of effective use of active on a wall mounted shelf on a second floor residential, but generally most suspended wood floors which are not specifically braced to remove the footfall bounce are not active friendly. so it's doable but only with some involved actions.

 

[pleroma]

Thank you both. It may be wisest to go passive until I have a listening room on a slab (she already wants to move, so who knows )

 

[spiritofmusic]

Pleroma, I can absolutely vouch for passive Stacore cld/pneumatic platforms.

My tt is central btwn my spkrs, initially effectively at floor level (ie not on a rack).

My floor is an original 1861 springy timber suspended, 35x30 total span.

So a challenge on many fronts. A Stacore Advanced platform (now also on a NorthWest Analog Slateage single tier stand) has proved to be a comprehensive solution, at 75% the cost of Accurion or Herzan.

 

[pleroma]

Spiritofmusic,

Thanks for the helpful info. And let me also thank Mike Lavigne, who was so kind as to spend well over an hour with me on the phone today talking about all things audio (do we have anything more valuable than our time?).

My game plan was to get a quote from my brother, who is a builder, to beef-up the media room subfloor (I'm thinking glue and screw another 3/4" OSB over the builder's, but I'll let the experts advise). Then I was going to get the Adona rack. From there I could experiment with passive devices, and later try active without starting over.

I will investigate your recommendation. But wow, 1861! I immediately thought US Civil War era, but now I see you are from England, so please pardon my erroneous assumption. Either way, your home must be beautiful. I love history and the historical.

BR,
Darryl