Reality is Cruel : Cybershaft new Ultimate OCXO 10M Clocks Shootout OP20 vs OP17

[CKKeung]

Hello Steve,
Please refer to my friend TLi's post of #163, #168 & #186 on the sonic characters and effect of the three clocks.
Both TLi and I are not tech guys.
We did and evaluate the clocks by our ears subjectively.

BTW TLi once brought the OP20 Limited2 clock to the HK dCS dealer showroom to demo the effect.
Everybody were convinced but Cybershaft got another dealer in HK.

To be frank, dCS makes a 10M clock input socket on their Vivaldi Clock is NOT for nothing.
They do know that there are external 10M clocks better than the internal 10M oscillator of the Vivaldi Clock.

 

[stevebythebay]

Thanks for the heads up on the posts. I guess I'll need to review all the posts in this forum.

If I decide to purchase the OP21A, how do I go about ordering one?

And should I replicate the clock cables I currently use or does it not matter? Also, how important are the quality level of these cables? My assumption is that getting high quality cables will be important in connecting the master clock to both the dCS clock and the Uptone EtherREGEN switch. Also, does the power cable for the OP21A need equal consideration?

 

[CKKeung]

Thanks for the heads up on the posts. I guess I'll need to review all the posts in this forum.

If I decide to purchase the OP21A, how do I go about ordering one?

And should I replicate the clock cables I currently use or does it not matter? Also, how important are the quality level of these cables? My assumption is that getting high quality cables will be important in connecting the master clock to both the dCS clock and the Uptone EtherREGEN switch. Also, does the power cable for the OP21A need equal consideration?

Please communicate with Kenji San of Cybershaft via this link :
http://www.cybershaft.jp/overseas01.html
He is very responive and his English good.

For clock cables, those of Cybershaft are cheap and not bad, particularly the newer & stiffer model.
You may use/try them for the time being.

One point to note :
If you are using an external 10M clock to supply & synchronize multiple components, please make sure that the clock cables are of the same brand & model and same length.

I did an experiment to test using diff lengths of clock cables and found that the sonics was adversely affected.

 

[TLi]

I can't understand the reason behind this choice - why using an ultra low phase noise 10 MHz clock and then introducing phase noise in the distribution clock?

Good question. I selected “dither on” in the very beginning when I only had the Vivaldi main clock.

I tried both on and off and found on gave a slightly warmer sound. I left it on since.

Now with better external reference clock, thing may be different. I shall try again this evening but I guess the result probably is the same.

 

[oldmustang]

Thanks for the heads up on the posts. I guess I'll need to review all the posts in this forum.

If I decide to purchase the OP21A, how do I go about ordering one?

And should I replicate the clock cables I currently use or does it not matter? Also, how important are the quality level of these cables? My assumption is that getting high quality cables will be important in connecting the master clock to both the dCS clock and the Uptone EtherREGEN switch. Also, does the power cable for the OP21A need equal consideration?

Mr. CCKeung advice is very good. I dealt directly with Kenji-San via the link provided. He is very prompt and responsive to questions and requests, particularly given the time difference to Japan.

I would also say the quality of all the clock cables in your system is very important. The two I would optimize first are the ones from the OP21 to your Vivaldi clock and the one to the other accessories you are connecting to the OP21. However, don't skimp on the Vivaldi Clock to DAC and Upsampler. dCS representatives as well as the associates at our high-end store in Seattle all agree that the clock cables may be the most important digital cables in a system. I certainly heard a significant improvement by going to Shunyata Research Sigma clock cables throughout. Given Shunyata's past track record of their Alpha line getting much of the performance of the Sigma, the SR Alphas might be a best buy if contemplating six clock cables all at once!

Good luck, and please let us know what you do and what you hear.

Best regards,

Steve

 

[stevebythebay]

Mr. CCKeung advice is very good. I dealt directly with Kenji-San via the link provided. He is very prompt and responsive to questions and requests, particularly given the time difference to Japan.

I would also say the quality of all the clock cables in your system is very important. The two I would optimize first are the ones from the OP21 to your Vivaldi clock and the one to the other accessories you are connecting to the OP21. However, don't skimp on the Vivaldi Clock to DAC and Upsampler. dCS representatives as well as the associates at our high-end store in Seattle all agree that the clock cables may be the most important digital cables in a system. I certainly heard a significant improvement by going to Shunyata Research Sigma clock cables throughout. Given Shunyata's past track record of their Alpha line getting much of the performance of the Sigma, the SR Alphas might be a best buy if contemplating six clock cables all at once!

Good luck, and please let us know what you do and what you hear.

Best regards,

Steve

What you say about clock cables for the Vivaldi stack is consistent with what I had been told by dCS and others. Went with three Transparent XLD cables. So, I guess I'll need a couple more for the OP21A, unless a less expensive pair from Shunyata (like the Sigma) will provide do the trick.

Any reason to upgrade the power cable of the OP21A from what ships with the clock?

 

[oldmustang]

What you say about clock cables for the Vivaldi stack is consistent with what I had been told by dCS and others. Went with three Transparent XLD cables. So, I guess I'll need a couple more for the OP21A, unless a less expensive pair from Shunyata (like the Sigma) will provide do the trick.

Any reason to upgrade the power cable of the OP21A from what ships with the clock?

I've been scared to go down that road!

I have a good but nothing special DiMarzio power cable powering my OP21 right now. In the near future I'll be trying one of the Shunyata cables, probably an Alpha NR. The reference clock is not a high power demand device.

Steve

 

[stevebythebay]

I've been scared to go down that road!

I have a good but nothing special DiMarzio power cable powering my OP21 right now. In the near future I'll be trying one of the Shunyata cables, probably an Alpha NR. The reference clock is not a high power demand device.

Steve

Seems a worthy cable. Been using a new design from Shunyata, the Venom V14 Digital, for my Ethernet switch. Not sure how much difference it makes in the audio system, but I'd used one with my JVC video projector and it cleaned things up considerably.

Caelin's been on a roll lately. The new Ethernet cables are a real winner as well. Awaiting the upcoming Denali tower replacement.

 

[nonesup]

I've been scared to go down that road!

I have a good but nothing special DiMarzio power cable powering my OP21 right now. In the near future I'll be trying one of the Shunyata cables, probably an Alpha NR. The reference clock is not a high power demand device.

Steve

Do not think that in low demand devices, an Alpha NR works just like a Sigma NR. I assure you no. Now it certainly costs half.

 

[AndrewChen]

I can't understand the reason behind this choice - why using an ultra low phase noise 10 MHz clock and then introducing phase noise in the distribution clock?

It seems counterintuitive, but it makes sense when you understand how/why “Dither” on the dCS clocks work. There used to be a white paper from dCS on the subject decades ago (during Mike Story’s days), but it’s no longer available (I guess it reveals too much proprietary information).

The gist of it is that the high-precision PLLs on each of the clock input on the dCS devices operate better; meaning the PLLs are better able to accurately lock onto the incoming clock signal edges when there is random timing “dither” (timing offsets) on them. The dither noise energy is random so controlled to average to zero.

As to how an external 10MHz reference clock could benefit the overall sonics even with the dCS Clock’s Dither turned On; as I understand it, if the external reference clock has better phase-noise characteristics than the dCS clock’s internal master, then the centre frequency of the output clock signals (i.e. the “averaged to zero” frequencies), have better phase noise characteristics which positively impacts the system sonics.

I personally use a Military-grade Stratum-1 10MHz clock reference into my Vivaldi system, found no reason to move to any consumer grade reference yet

 

[CKKeung]

It seems counterintuitive, but it makes sense when you understand how/why “Dither” on the dCS clocks work. There used to be a white paper from dCS on the subject decades ago (during Mike Story’s days), but it’s no longer available (I guess it reveals too much proprietary information).

The gist of it is that the high-precision PLLs on each of the clock input on the dCS devices operate better; meaning the PLLs are better able to accurately lock onto the incoming clock signal edges when there is random timing “dither” (timing offsets) on them. The dither noise energy is random so controlled to average to zero.

As to how an external 10MHz reference clock could benefit the overall sonics even with the dCS Clock’s Dither turned On; as I understand it, if the external reference clock has better phase-noise characteristics than the dCS clock’s internal master, then the centre frequency of the output clock signals (i.e. the “averaged to zero” frequencies), have better phase noise characteristics which positively impacts the system sonics.

I personally use a Military-grade Stratum-1 10MHz clock reference into my Vivaldi system, found no reason to move to any consumer grade reference yet

Hello AndrewChen,
Wow.
A Brandywine cesium-based 10M clock reference?

Are they available to consumers?
What's the approximate price?

Thanks!

 

[SCAudiophile]

I've been scared to go down that road!

I have a good but nothing special DiMarzio power cable powering my OP21 right now. In the near future I'll be trying one of the Shunyata cables, probably an Alpha NR. The reference clock is not a high power demand device.

Steve

Upgraded to an Alpha NR or the soon to ship Alpha v2's which I am testing these past couple of weeks in beta
would be a good 'right-size' move for a Cybershaft OP20/OP21A clock. I've used an Elrod Statement Silver
power cord for > 5 years on my clock devices (comparable spend to a new Alpha) and I've tested the Alpha V2
on my clock recently with equivalent and great results. Going back some years when I moved from stock power
cord to a good after market cord, I was immediately rewarded with some tighter imaging, and better soundstaging.

Priorities for clocks (IMHO);
1. 50-ohm clock cable quality (Shunyata Alpha and Sigma CLOCK50s are the best out there, Mexcel-Acrolink 8N-A2000 if you can find one take up 2nd best I've used)
2. Isolation - a good platform/audio stand to help with macro-level isolation. Stillpoint UltraSS feet for the clock for micro-level vibration control/isolation
3. Power cord - dealer's choice here as they say. I've used Elrod Statement Silver and now test Shunyata Alpha V2, clock performance was bettered in both cases in every aspect of listening including dynamics, refinement and tonal character of sound. Other good power cords out there, take your pick but I've stated my 2 favorites....

 

[SCAudiophile]

Hello AndrewChen,
Wow.
A Brandywine cesium-based 10M clock reference?

Are they available to consumers?
What's the approximate price?

Thanks!

An exceptional product,...cesium is far better than Rubidium *and much more expensive.....the Allen specs on that unit are fantastic; anyone know the phase noise at 1, 100, 100, etc?

 

[Kris]

Tried rbidium many yers go and sold it
the difference with and without was not clear.

now ocxo and cesium is way to go.

 

[rgmd11]

This could be interesting, I have e-mailed a working friend who is a world renowned f.o.h audio engineer for his thoughts and see what he uses on his shows.

https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/10mx/

 

[CKKeung]

This could be interesting, I have e-mailed a working friend who is a world renowned f.o.h audio engineer for his thoughts and see what he uses on his shows.
https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/10mx/

My audiophile friends in HK and I are very familar with the Antelope 10M and 10MX.
Several of them owned them but have replaced them with Cybershaft models.

We did direct comaprisons before and the Antelope 10MX was easily bettered by the Cybershaft older model OP20 Limited2.
We think one of the pitfalls of 10MX is its internal switching powersupply.

The more expensive (but discontinued?) Antelope 10M got a better Rb module and can be added an external LPS but I guess it cannot fight with the newer OP20A/OP21A.

 

[rgmd11]

It seems counterintuitive, but it makes sense when you understand how/why “Dither” on the dCS clocks work. There used to be a white paper from dCS on the subject decades ago (during Mike Story’s days), but it’s no longer available (I guess it reveals too much proprietary information).

The gist of it is that the high-precision PLLs on each of the clock input on the dCS devices operate better; meaning the PLLs are better able to accurately lock onto the incoming clock signal edges when there is random timing “dither” (timing offsets) on them. The dither noise energy is random so controlled to average to zero.

As to how an external 10MHz reference clock could benefit the overall sonics even with the dCS Clock’s Dither turned On; as I understand it, if the external reference clock has better phase-noise characteristics than the dCS clock’s internal master, then the centre frequency of the output clock signals (i.e. the “averaged to zero” frequencies), have better phase noise characteristics which positively impacts the system sonics.

I personally use a Military-grade Stratum-1 10MHz clock reference into my Vivaldi system, found no reason to move to any consumer grade reference yet

Hi

Where did you buy this clock (Stratum-1), I can find nowhere listing this item, Thanks

 

[rgmd11]

My audiophile friends in HK and I are very familar with the Antelope 10M and 10MX.
Several of them owned them but have replaced them with Cybershaft models.

We did direct comaprisons before and the Antelope 10MX was easily bettered by the Cybershaft older model OP20 Limited2.
We think one of the pitfalls of 10MX is its internal switching powersupply.

The more expensive (but discontinued?) Antelope 10M got a better Rb module and can be added an external LPS but I guess it cannot fight with the newer OP20A/OP21A.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, I would personally like to say a big thanks for your time posting here, I find your posts are extremely well written and very informative and help less informed people like myself to try and make the best informed decision, Bravo Sir.

 

[oldmustang]

Upgraded to an Alpha NR or the soon to ship Alpha v2's which I am testing these past couple of weeks in beta
would be a good 'right-size' move for a Cybershaft OP20/OP21A clock. I've used an Elrod Statement Silver
power cord for > 5 years on my clock devices (comparable spend to a new Alpha) and I've tested the Alpha V2
on my clock recently with equivalent and great results. Going back some years when I moved from stock power
cord to a good after market cord, I was immediately rewarded with some tighter imaging, and better soundstaging.

Priorities for clocks (IMHO);
1. 50-ohm clock cable quality (Shunyata Alpha and Sigma CLOCK50s are the best out there, Mexcel-Acrolink 8N-A2000 if you can find one take up 2nd best I've used)
2. Isolation - a good platform/audio stand to help with macro-level isolation. Stillpoint UltraSS feet for the clock for micro-level vibration control/isolation
3. Power cord - dealer's choice here as they say. I've used Elrod Statement Silver and now test Shunyata Alpha V2, clock performance was bettered in both cases in every aspect of listening including dynamics, refinement and tonal character of sound. Other good power cords out there, take your pick but I've stated my 2 favorites....

Thank you, Mark. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I’ve greatly benefited from your generosity sharing what you’ve learned going down this road well ahead of me.

Steve

 

[SCAudiophile]

YVW....and thank you! In this case not my direct experience with this LRPSU (my Cybershaft Ultra Premium OP21
does not have the ability 'yet' to take an external power supply but from what Kenji tells me the power supply custom
build he did inside my clock, 102ssc and all was the first generation of this, his latest standalone version being an
even bigger step up so I can readily believe what I've heard from this other customer.