Reality is Cruel : Cybershaft new Ultimate OCXO 10M Clocks Shootout OP20 vs OP17

[Tintin]

Hi all, thank you to all members in this thread for sharing 10MHz clock knowledge. I have learned a lot here. In my area, I get a chance to have Mutec Ref10 SE120 for home audition with my Vivaldi setup. It is a wonderful product especially when we consider its price tag. However, a few of you in this thread inform that Cybershaft Op21 is better than Mutec. I contact Kenji san many times to acquire more information. Unfortunately, Cybershaft does not have policy for distributor outside Japan so I am a bit worry about future service and resale value difficulties.

In the meanwhile, local Esoteric dealer lend me the Esoteric G-02X for home audition. It is better than Mutec Ref10 SE120 but I have no idea how it will compare to Cybershaft Op21. The dealer also inform me that if I use Esoteric Grandioso G1 (rubidium clock) my jaw will drop for sure as it is far beyond G-02X which is OCXO class, same as Mutec and Cybershaft.

If any of you can share your opinion and comments, it would be grateful.

1. Has anyone ever compare Esoteric clock with Cybershaft?

2. Esoteric output 10MHz clock signal in 50ohms circuit which is different from 75ohms circuit of Vivaldi. Is this significant?

3. In technical specification, Rubidium clock has more accuracy than OCXO. How big difference are they in terms of sound quality?

 

[Jpspock]

Don’t worry, I live in Belgium and you won’t have and problem with cybershaft. Concerning resale, if you are in Europe, there will be certainly consumer interested.

about comparison with Esoteric, it must be certainly 3times of the price...

 

[Tintin]

Don’t worry, I live in Belgium and you won’t have and problem with cybershaft. Concerning resale, if you are in Europe, there will be certainly consumer interested.

about comparison with Esoteric, it must be certainly 3times of the price...

Thank you Jpspock.
Yes, the Esoteric Grandioso G1 is about 3 times price of Cybershaft Op21 but if it is a noticeable upgrade, then it is good to go.

 

[Jpspock]

But will it work well with dcs? Esoteric and DCS have different approach, and the sound is not exactly the same.
read Alain this topics and many of dcs stacks added a cybershaft, and the difference is very huge. Fyi, I have a Rossini with a scarlatti clock

 

[oldmustang]

If any of you can share your opinion and comments, it would be grateful.

1. Has anyone ever compare Esoteric clock with Cybershaft?

2. Esoteric output 10MHz clock signal in 50ohms circuit which is different from 75ohms circuit of Vivaldi. Is this significant?

3. In technical specification, Rubidium clock has more accuracy than OCXO. How big difference are they in terms of sound quality?

I can only offer somewhat informed opinions on 2. and 3. above:

2. Yes, the mis-match between the 75 ohm dCS reference clock input and the 50 ohm output of the Esoteric clock is significant. Certainly, you will still get a clock signal at the Vivaldi that can be locked onto, but it will hardly be optimum. Impedance mismatches cause a portion of the power being output by the source to be reflected back.

3. Clock accuracy does not seem to be as important a factor as ultra-low phase noise in terms of sonic contribution.

Steve Z

 

[Tintin]

But will it work well with dcs? Esoteric and DCS have different approach, and the sound is not exactly the same.
read Alain this topics and many of dcs stacks added a cybershaft, and the difference is very huge. Fyi, I have a Rossini with a scarlatti clock

Thanks for information.

I have Esoteric G-02 at home now for trial it sounds good so far but I am reluctant to purchase the G1 as I am afraid it may not work perfectly due to mismatch ohms output & input.

 

[Tintin]

I can only offer somewhat informed opinions on 2. and 3. above:

2. Yes, the mis-match between the 75 ohm dCS reference clock input and the 50 ohm output of the Esoteric clock is significant. Certainly, you will still get a clock signal at the Vivaldi that can be locked onto, but it will hardly be optimum. Impedance mismatches cause a portion of the power being output by the source to be reflected back.

3. Clock accuracy does not seem to be as important a factor as ultra-low phase noise in terms of sonic contribution.

Steve Z

Thank you Steve.
I once believe the mismatch ohm is significant as well even with the bnc cable and its connector until I heard from Esoteric that it is no big deal. Seems like I need to find more information about this before purchasing Grandioso G1.

Have you ever used other 10MHz clock besides Cybershaft OP21?

Do you have any idea on how long does it take until we need to recalibrate the clock again?

 

[SCAudiophile]

I can only offer somewhat informed opinions on 2. and 3. above:

2. Yes, the mis-match between the 75 ohm dCS reference clock input and the 50 ohm output of the Esoteric clock is significant. Certainly, you will still get a clock signal at the Vivaldi that can be locked onto, but it will hardly be optimum. Impedance mismatches cause a portion of the power being output by the source to be reflected back.

3. Clock accuracy does not seem to be as important a factor as ultra-low phase noise in terms of sonic contribution.

Steve Z

Steve, very well said on all points,...for TinTin, as an FY, there have been double blind tests conducted by Shunyata with non-production simple
cables and. connectors by multiple guys, all with different brands of transport, DAC, player and clock over a multi-month period a couple
years ago. The results musically boil down impacts on imaging and image/instrument size, tonality, attack, pacing, etc...when
using a 75ohm cable to route a 50ohm signal. In this case, Esoteric and various dealers based upon that are not correct IMHO
and that of others here and in other forums who participated. The exact results for each person were not shared until months
later but everyone reported deleterious impact of using the wrong impedance cable (50 instead of 75 and 75 in place or 50).
50 is a better spect and interestingly enough using a 50ohm a where 75ohm was called for did not 'hurt' as much however
all tests using all types and brands of gear and clocks showed that using a proper and certified at the target impedance
cable makes a difference.

I have owned Esoteric G-0s (Rb) for many years and bought it due to my naivete that 'precision is all that matters'; could not
have been more wrong. Short term precision is more important and lower phase noise and stability, yielding calculation of
effective jitter is MOST important of all. For that reason I no longer utilize Rb-oscillator based designs; more precise sure
but not necessarily the lowest phase noise and best Allan Variation specs (again which calc's out to the effective). Jitter
is the enemy after all. After the G-0s, I owned the older G-03x (OCX based) model from Esoteric. The result was more
musical despite the clock being 'less precise'. Since that time I've focused only on OCXO-based designs.

Esoteric Grandioso G1: A great implementation, very precise, very low phase noise and good Allan Variance specs,..the
results are a result of a great oscillator onboard, Esoterics legendary power supplies and a great distribution/splitter
amplifier board(s). That combination and the Grandioso casework, Esoteric comes at a premium price however. The
latest Cybershaft OP21As and a couple other brands weigh in exceptionally well. The Cybershaft achieves equal or
better results than the G1 and also the BVA Sforzato ($33K if memory serves and the reference the world over for all 10Mhz clocks)
so for me I am happy and done.

Time between calibrations: check with your manufacturer; it's generally measure in years from what I'm told.

The G1 is fantastic piece as is Cybershaft. Both are from my point of view, great contenders for any system that needs 10Mhz.

 

[CKKeung]

Steve, very well said on all points,...for TinTin, as an FY, there have been double blind tests conducted by Shunyata with non-production simple
cables and. connectors by multiple guys, all with different brands of transport, DAC, player and clock over a multi-month period a couple
years ago. The results musically boil down impacts on imaging and image/instrument size, tonality, attack, pacing, etc...when
using a 75ohm cable to route a 50ohm signal. In this case, Esoteric and various dealers based upon that are not correct IMHO
and that of others here and in other forums who participated. The exact results for each person were not shared until months
later but everyone reported deleterious impact of using the wrong impedance cable (50 instead of 75 and 75 in place or 50).
50 is a better spect and interestingly enough using a 50ohm a where 75ohm was called for did not 'hurt' as much however
all tests using all types and brands of gear and clocks showed that using a proper and certified at the target impedance
cable makes a difference.

I have owned Esoteric G-0s (Rb) for many years and bought it due to my naivete that 'precision is all that matters'; could not
have been more wrong. Short term precision is more important and lower phase noise and stability, yielding calculation of
effective jitter is MOST important of all. For that reason I no longer utilize Rb-oscillator based designs; more precise sure
but not necessarily the lowest phase noise and best Allan Variation specs (again which calc's out to the effective). Jitter
is the enemy after all. After the G-0s, I owned the older G-03x (OCX based) model from Esoteric. The result was more
musical despite the clock being 'less precise'. Since that time I've focused only on OCXO-based designs.

Esoteric Grandioso G1: A great implementation, very precise, very low phase noise and good Allan Variance specs,..the
results are a result of a great oscillator onboard, Esoterics legendary power supplies and a great distribution/splitter
amplifier board(s). That combination and the Grandioso casework, Esoteric comes at a premium price however. The
latest Cybershaft OP21As and a couple other brands weigh in exceptionally well. The Cybershaft achieves equal or
better results than the G1 and also the BVA Sforzato ($33K if memory serves and the reference the world over for all 10Mhz clocks)
so for me I am happy and done.

Time between calibrations: check with your manufacturer; it's generally measure in years from what I'm told.

The G1 is fantastic piece as is Cybershaft. Both are from my point of view, great contenders for any system that needs 10Mhz.

I agree with SCaudiophile completely.
A very good summary.

Both Grandioso G1 and Cybershaft's new OP21A/20A are top choices for audiophiles but considering the price difference, the OP21A is impossible to beat!
It's my personal first choice.

 

[SCAudiophile]

I agree with SCaudiophile completely.
A very good summary.

Both Grandioso G1 and Cybershaft's new OP21A/20A are top choices for audiophiles but considering the price difference, the OP21A is impossible to beat!
It's my personal first choice.

Agreed,..I also (obviously since I own one) strongly prefer it over the G1. I had the good fortune to hear a Grandioso K1, clocked
by G1, good cables Esoteric C1 pre-amp, M1 monos, HRX racks and all the rest of the trimmings of a top flight system for an
extended listening session shortly after upgraded to the OP21A I now have.

The Cybershaft OP21A, with Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK50 cables with a discontinued 7 year old Esoteric P-02 and D-02 was
to me a better sounding full range, best dynamics, best imaging rendition versus the K1 and G1 combo. Lots of variables
and purely subjective I realize however my point is for me, the OP21A Cybershaft is so damned good it elevated (elevates,
very much present tense) my old components to sound as good or better than the latest (at the time) offerings and I frankly
like the result better musically!

 

[CKKeung]

The only other audiophile clock which has attracted me is the CH Precision T1.

I did a comparison of it against the older but still available Cybershaft OP20 on a CH Precision C1+X1 dac with clock card installed.
(plese refer to my T1 review on WBF)
The T1 when without GPS syn could not win the OP20. They were on par.
Only when turning on its GPS syn could the T1 go beyond the OP20.

I hope I can have the chance to compare T1 with OP21A in future.
However, again bcos of the huge price diff, the OP21A is impossible to beat if price is taken into the equation.

 

[SCAudiophile]

But will it work well with dcs? Esoteric and DCS have different approach, and the sound is not exactly the same.
read Alain this topics and many of dcs stacks added a cybershaft, and the difference is very huge. Fyi, I have a Rossini with a scarlatti clock

I believe but may be wrong that the Scarlatti does not take a 10Mhz signal, the Vivaldi clock does. Using the Cybershaft to give the master ref
to the Vivaldi clock has been reported to make a big difference. Note I believe that from DCS clocks to DCS end-point gear is all 75ohm word-clocking,....different kettle....

 

[CKKeung]

The dCS Scarletti Clock has a 10M input for external 10M refernce too.

All dCS clocks are significantly improved by adding a Cybershaft to them. I tested the Rossini & Vivaldi Clocks with this tweak before.
A no brainer!

 

[oldmustang]

I believe but may be wrong that the Scarlatti does not take a 10Mhz signal, the Vivaldi clock does. Using the Cybershaft to give the master ref
to the Vivaldi clock has been reported to make a big difference. Note I believe that from DCS clocks to DCS end-point gear is all 75ohm word-clocking,....different kettle....

dCS Vivaldi clock is indeed 75 ohm. I can testify that the combination of Cybershaft OP21 and Shunyata Sigma 75 ohm clock cables significantly elevated the already excellent performance of my Vivaldi suite. Given the price of the other reference clocks in the Cybershaft’s performance class, I couldn’t be more pleased.

Steve Z

 

[Tintin]

Steve, very well said on all points,...for TinTin, as an FY, there have been double blind tests conducted by Shunyata with non-production simple
cables and. connectors by multiple guys, all with different brands of transport, DAC, player and clock over a multi-month period a couple
years ago. The results musically boil down impacts on imaging and image/instrument size, tonality, attack, pacing, etc...when
using a 75ohm cable to route a 50ohm signal. In this case, Esoteric and various dealers based upon that are not correct IMHO
and that of others here and in other forums who participated. The exact results for each person were not shared until months
later but everyone reported deleterious impact of using the wrong impedance cable (50 instead of 75 and 75 in place or 50).
50 is a better spect and interestingly enough using a 50ohm a where 75ohm was called for did not 'hurt' as much however
all tests using all types and brands of gear and clocks showed that using a proper and certified at the target impedance
cable makes a difference.

I have owned Esoteric G-0s (Rb) for many years and bought it due to my naivete that 'precision is all that matters'; could not
have been more wrong. Short term precision is more important and lower phase noise and stability, yielding calculation of
effective jitter is MOST important of all. For that reason I no longer utilize Rb-oscillator based designs; more precise sure
but not necessarily the lowest phase noise and best Allan Variation specs (again which calc's out to the effective). Jitter
is the enemy after all. After the G-0s, I owned the older G-03x (OCX based) model from Esoteric. The result was more
musical despite the clock being 'less precise'. Since that time I've focused only on OCXO-based designs.

Esoteric Grandioso G1: A great implementation, very precise, very low phase noise and good Allan Variance specs,..the
results are a result of a great oscillator onboard, Esoterics legendary power supplies and a great distribution/splitter
amplifier board(s). That combination and the Grandioso casework, Esoteric comes at a premium price however. The
latest Cybershaft OP21As and a couple other brands weigh in exceptionally well. The Cybershaft achieves equal or
better results than the G1 and also the BVA Sforzato ($33K if memory serves and the reference the world over for all 10Mhz clocks)
so for me I am happy and done.

Time between calibrations: check with your manufacturer; it's generally measure in years from what I'm told.

The G1 is fantastic piece as is Cybershaft. Both are from my point of view, great contenders for any system that needs 10Mhz.

SCAudiophile, Thank you very much for your detail explanation.
Also, thanks to CKKeung and oldmustang.

Maybe this is the answer I keep asking myself why I never see such a system using dCS Vivaldi with Esoteric clock. In Thailand, 80-90% of Vivaldi owner only use its own clock while a few start applying Mutec and no one, as far as I know, use Cybershaft.

From your experience/knowledge, OP21A and Esoteric G1both have similar low phase noise and good Allan Variance. You did mention about power supplies and circuit onboard of Grandioso G1 is excellent. How about the OP21A?

Have you used the external power supply and Cybershaft spike to tweak its own clock?
If having external power supply is a good way to go, then it may be better to order their OP21A-D to cut off the interference of AC from the unit.

 

[Tintin]

The only other audiophile clock which has attracted me is the CH Precision T1.

I did a comparison of it against the older but still available Cybershaft OP20 on a CH Precision C1+X1 dac with clock card installed.
(plese refer to my T1 review on WBF)
The T1 when without GPS syn could not win the OP20. They were on par.
Only when turning on its GPS syn could the T1 go beyond the OP20.

I hope I can have the chance to compare T1 with OP21A in future.
However, again bcos of the huge price diff, the OP21A is impossible to beat if price is taken into the equation.

I notice that Esoteric clock can also apply GPS syn but even the distributor in Thailand has no idea about it.
Is it costly to add into a home audio system?

 

[justubes]

The Esoteric clocks are nicely built and well, possibly tuned sonically that performs well with the gear.

For the G02x, adding a superior 10M input woud be a milestone leap.

Just too many boxes, cables.

A good setup with top notch cables and isolation could well sound superior or very good as reported, although phase noise wise, falls short of good 10M clocking solutions available today.

A point to consider is that for the 02's, the 10M ocxo used, should be without a doubt, a far cry from the likes of Cybershaft and Mutec is offering from a technical superior point of view.

 

[BMCG]

I believe but may be wrong that the Scarlatti does not take a 10Mhz signal, the Vivaldi clock does. Using the Cybershaft to give the master ref
to the Vivaldi clock has been reported to make a big difference. Note I believe that from DCS clocks to DCS end-point gear is all 75ohm word-clocking,....different kettle....

The Scarlatti - as well as its forebear the Verona - can take 10Mhz inputs.

SC - have been remiss in not thanking you for your many years of diagnostics/exploration of clocks...your experimentation and resultant insights have helped my own system developments considerably! Much appreciated.

 

[Jpspock]

With thé new version cybershaft, you have the possibility to switch between 50 and 75ohm. Once I used it in 75ohm with the cable and adaptor 50ohm. Immediately, I hear it didn’t work well...

Sc, only the clocks dcs Puccini and Rossini do not give the possibility to use a 10mhz clock. Next step will be a Vivaldi clock. It seems diffet’en es are important with the scarlatti..

 

[Ricardo007]

Concerning Cybershaft 0p20 or op21 DC versions (15v 1A) where you need an external supply have you compared cybersfaft psu (BTW it is 13.5V out...) to other PSU (UpTone JS2, Sean Jacobs DC3 or DC4, Paul hynes, Farad super 3...)?

Second question:
Is it better to have
A) op21A-1 (single output, DC powered) And cybershap distribution unit (4 output, DC powered) powered by cybershaft psu (it has 2 DC output) OR
B) op21A with the distribution board inside with 4 outputs but powered by à single rail of cybershaft psu

Third question:
Can thé clock be powered by à rail from say à multirail Sean Jacob psu thé other rails powering for example thé switch between server and player, thé player sotm clock board clocking sotm usb card, sotm txusb card, player motherboard and server motherboard with no downsides ?