Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[romaz]

Matthias, a £2.5k dac will surely make the financial pill of Extreme easier to swallow. Life being what it is, there is the possibility or likely probability that Extreme could shred the Yggy. If it doesnt, and Yggy a good holistic match, does that say more about how great Extreme is...or Yggy is?

I have built music servers for friends with DACs that have varied across the board including the Yggy. Without exception, a good music server has improved them all. I have also heard very good DACs that have failed to separate themselves more than one would expect from lesser DACs because of a poor server.

What I have found in my own digital journey is that a poorly-implemented server can sound harsh, bright, and unnatural sounding even when paired with a very good DAC and while I do believe that the DAC has the potential to make a greater difference than the server (since a DAC is both a digital and analog device), as we rapidly approach 2020, even a $100 AQ DragonFly DAC has the potential to sound quite engaging when paired with a good server and so the lowest standard of DAC that can be purchased today is of a higher standard than the lowest standard of music server.

If I were to advise someone starting from scratch with a digital system, I would say get the best music server you can afford at the compromise of the DAC and then later improve the DAC as finances permit. What you may find is that even with your inexpensive DAC, you may find yourself so pleased that you may not wish to bother or that you don't necessarily need to climb to the highest echelons of DACs to achieve the level of SQ you were hoping for.

The highest echelon that one can climb with respect to music servers at this time, imho, is the Extreme at about $25k USD. With DACs, you're talking well north of $100k and so it's just more prudent to start with the Extreme even if your goal is to reach the very top of the mountain with respect to a DAC. My audiophile group meets periodically to listen to new pieces of equipment that someone might buy and this inevitably leads to shootouts. What is interesting is that there is no consensus in our group on what the best DAC is as it turns out this is quite personal whereas when we hear a good server, we are more likely to be unanimous in our preference for that server. This is no more evident than on this thread where you have people who own DACs across the board and yet they have all come to the same conclusion as to which music server they believe is best.

While it might seem ill-advised to mate a $25k server with a $2.5k DAC, I have absolutely no doubt the Extreme will make that DAC sound like a much more expensive DAC. I don't think this can be said if things were reversed. I don't believe a Select II, for example, will make a NUC sound the equivalent of the Extreme.

 

[matthias]

I have built music servers for friends with DACs that have varied across the board including the Yggy. Without exception, a good music server has improved them all. I have also heard very good DACs that have failed to separate themselves more than one would expect from lesser DACs because of a poor server.

What I have found in my own digital journey is that a poorly-implemented server can sound harsh, bright, and unnatural sounding even when paired with a very good DAC and while I do believe that the DAC has the potential to make a greater difference than the server (since a DAC is both a digital and analog device), as we rapidly approach 2020, even a $100 AQ DragonFly DAC has the potential to sound quite engaging when paired with a good server and so the lowest standard of DAC that can be purchased today is of a higher standard than the lowest standard of music server.

If I were to advise someone starting from scratch with a digital system, I would say get the best music server you can afford at the compromise of the DAC and then later improve the DAC as finances permit. What you may find is that even with your inexpensive DAC, you may find yourself so pleased that you may not wish to bother or that you don't necessarily need to climb to the highest echelons of DACs to achieve the level of SQ you were hoping for.

The highest echelon that one can climb with respect to music servers at this time, imho, is the Extreme at about $25k USD. With DACs, you're talking well north of $100k and so it's just more prudent to start with the Extreme even if your goal is to reach the very top of the mountain with respect to a DAC. My audiophile group meets periodically to listen to new pieces of equipment that someone might buy and this inevitably leads to shootouts. What is interesting is that there is no consensus in our group on what the best DAC is as it turns out this is quite personal whereas when we hear a good server, we are more likely to be unanimous in our preference for that server. This is no more evident than on this thread where you have people who own DACs across the board and yet they have all come to the same conclusion as to which music server they believe is best.

While it might seem ill-advised to mate a $25k server with a $2.5k DAC, I have absolutely no doubt the Extreme will make that DAC sound like a much more expensive DAC. I don't think this can be said if things were reversed. I don't believe a Select II, for example, will make a NUC sound the equivalent of the Extreme.

Thank you romaz,
agree completely

Matt

 

[spiritofmusic]

Romaz, thanks. I'm glad the thread diverted in this direction. There's no doubt the broad consensus was spend more on the dac than the server. Maybe if Extreme is in a field of one and showing a clean pair of heels to all comers, it really does make sense to pair Extreme with a great Usb cable (in my case, no doubt this would be Sablon), and start off with a really well regarded uber vfm dac like Yggy 2 (soon to have its new dedicated Usb module), or Holo Audio May.

This is proper food for thought for me. A budget of $25-30k is manageable, and would leave scope for a killer dac at a later date, maybe Aqua Formula XHD, Total Dac7 or Lampi Pacific.

In my case, it would cost me way more to fully dramatically improve upon my analog, more bang for buck would result from Extreme/vfm dac.

 

[Steve williams]

What is interesting is that there is no consensus in our group on what the best DAC is as it turns out this is quite personal whereas when we hear a good server, we are more likely to be unanimous in our preference for that server. This is no more evident than on this thread where you have people who own DACs across the board and yet they have all come to the same conclusion as to which music server they believe is best.

While it might seem ill-advised to mate a $25k server with a $2.5k DAC, I have absolutely no doubt the Extreme will make that DAC sound like a much more expensive DAC. I don't think this can be said if things were reversed. I don't believe a Select II, for example, will make a NUC sound the equivalent of the Extreme.

I totally agree. There is no reason with the Extreme to spend obscene amounts on a DAC.

 

[Rhapsody]

And no one is saying that a "better" dac is not going to sound better, it's just that just so it's a good sounding dac, with the Extreme you experience that you are getting everything, depending on the room/rest of system, that you need to be blown away with the sonics.

I had the recent experience of getting the Diesis Evento integrated hybrid amp. It has a built in M2Tech MK III dac. I could not believe how good the Evento worked and I was using a spdif cable as I didn't have a long enough usb cable. I had no reason to want to change to an external dac.

I finally did switch to the AFxHD and yes it was better, BUT, not as much difference as one would expect from a $1.5K stock dac, although Diesis modified the PS, vs a $17K pretty nice sounding dac.

 

[Steve williams]

And no one is saying that a "better" dac is not going to sound better, it's just that just so it's a good sounding dac, with the Extreme you experience that you are getting everything, depending on the room/rest of system, that you need to be blown away with the sonics.

I had the recent experience of getting the Diesis Evento integrated hybrid amp. It has a built in M2Tech MK III dac. I could not believe how good the Evento worked and I was using a spdif cable as I didn't have a long enough usb cable. I had no reason to want to change to an external dac.

I finally did switch to the AFxHD and yes it was better, BUT, not as much difference as one would expect from a $1.5K stock dac, although Diesis modified the PS, vs a $17K pretty nice sounding dac.

There is zero question in my mind as I have been using a 12 year old DAC pending arrival my new DAC in a few weeks. I could easily live with the sound I have now

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, there are some v well regarded dacs sub $10k. There's a whole online community devoted to the tubed MHDT range at $1-1.5k. Holo Springs, Schiit Yggdrasil, Exogal Comet and Denafrips Terminator at $2.5-6k, TotalDac from $5k, Chord from $2k to >$10k. These are all well worked out, smartly engineered solutions. And have the potential to shine w Extreme.

 

[Rhapsody]

Steve, there are some v well regarded dacs sub $10k. There's a whole online community devoted to the tubed MHDT range at $1-1.5k. Holo Springs, Schiit Yggdrasil and Denafrips Terminator at $2.5-6k, TotalDac from $5k, Chord from $2k to >$10k. These are all well worked out, smartly engineered solutions. And have the potential to shine w Extreme.

Careful Marc, you're starting to sound like an Extreme fanboy......have another drink!

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, there are some v well regarded dacs sub $10k. There's a whole online community devoted to the tubed MHDT range at $1-1.5k. Holo Springs, Schiit Yggdrasil and Denafrips Terminator at $2.5-6k, TotalDac from $5k, Chord from $2k to >$10k. These are all well worked out, smartly engineered solutions. And have the potential to shine w Extreme.

Marc

I totally agree

IMO the Extreme is the component to build the system around rather than building it around the DAC. I'm sure Emile would agree with that as well

The SQ of the Extreme is beyond anything I would have ever expected. As Mike stated yesterday to which I concur, "the Extreme is a break out product". IMO there is no need to go crazy with an uber expensive DAC. Looking at the systems of Extreme owners here, they all use a diversity of DACs and I bet they are enjoying the Extreme every bit as much as if they were using uber expensive DACs. I know I am

 

[spiritofmusic]

Careful Marc, you're starting to sound like an Extreme fanboy......have another drink!

Bob, I'm expecting the cheque anytime soon.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, I'm expecting the cheque anytime soon.

It's in the mail:0)

 

[Kris]

I totally agree. There is no reason with the Extreme to spend obscene amounts on a DAC.

There is a reason.
a very good reason

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Kris, we all know the reasons why if you can stretch to a Select 2 dac on an Extreme, you should. The concept has been raised as to whether Extreme can shine with a way cheaper dac.

There are plenty of sub $5k carts that should work on a top tt. Why not a cheaper dac on Extreme?

Unless Kris, you have something new to say.

 

[nonesup]

Emile has Terminator DAC.

I sent it to him.

Because Emile is very busy, he doesn't support Terminator users perfectly, but he will support Terminator DAC soon.

I have Spring DAC Lv. 3 KTE, but I don't like it. So I didn't send it to Emile.

Taiko Audio will support Denafrips products.

He can't support all DAC brands.

I do not understand. Extreme is not compatible with any USB DAC?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Source material

I do not understand. Extreme is not compatible with any USB DAC?

I think support=test here, I have a Terminator but did not get around to listening to it yet.

 

[nonesup]

So if you want to buy an Extreme and you have a DAC that you have not tried, do you have to send the DAC to Holland?

 

[Esotar]

So if you want to buy an Extreme and you have a DAC that you have not tried, do you have to send the DAC to Holland?

No~!

Just installation USB driver in Extreme.

After this, Emile will set your Extreme.

 

[Taiko Audio]

So if you want to buy an Extreme and you have a DAC that you have not tried, do you have to send the DAC to Holland?

No, I think the translation engine is causing confusion translating Korean to English. I have not seen a DAC not working with Windows yet.

 

[howiebrou]

So it seems we have three options if we have 40k burning a hole;

1. Extreme plus 10k Dac plus 5K USB Cable
2. 5K server plus 30 K Dac plus 5K USB Cable
3. 5KServer plus 5K Dac plus 30K USB Cable

I vote for Spirit to be the Beta tester....

To me it would make sense to consider not only which has the most influence on the sound but which component advances quicker, i.e. which would be obsolete the quickest...

 

[the sound of Tao]

So with Extreme up at the current top who will consider putting $30k+ into a server but still just spend a few $k on a dac? Anyone who can afford a $25k server and are into digital already will likely already have a dac and cables etc already over $20k to start with.

So who are these guys without a dac at all who would invest over $35k as a starting point into a streaming setup with only a minimal investment in a dac... I’d say possibly it’d be analog only guys who already have invested in a top flight turntable setup and will and can spend up at the top end but may have not felt till now that a digital system could check enough of their right musical buttons to make them plunge into the hazards and considerable effort of a file based computer audio.

Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of the Extreme is that it is so crazily judiciously designed and built that it seems to factor out a lot of the fundamental issues in putting together a high quality digital setup ie primarily creating a sufficiently low noise environment with all the right infrastructure to make it a super low noise RFI proof system.

Managing RFI is one of the great challenges for putting together a digital setup to sound at its musical best.

If your digital setup isn’t built to be very RFI immune it will suffer all the surrounding noise of the rest of the system. Tonal greyness and harshness is often an outcome.

For those of us who’ve already built digital systems that are inherently musical they already have all the right infrastructure in the system to make digital work, ie all them fancy shielded signal and power cables and power supplies, router switches etc. As well digital tends to be very responsive to all manner of foo resonance control to boot and even the sway of power conditioning and the like.

I’m just going to suggest that what makes DDK and Peter’s completely workable inexpensive or low key tweak approach possible is that they aren’t primarily setting up for digital environments and these strategies work even better again if they are also primarily analogue based horn and SET systems. Analogue based horn and SET can play very happily and beautifully naturally in relatively unshielded cable environments if the components and analogue source are all top flight.

My time with the Animas and 300B amps taught me that with an analogue front end the pcs and signal cables were absolutely just less critical but then when the Animas and 300Bs were then being used for a digital based system then the cables once again came much more into play.

If in the case of the Extreme the inherent design of that server factors out a lot of the more critical downstream issues for the rest of the digital components of sounding good then it will still perform in an anything less than perfect digital environment.

So then the Extreme would indeed be the prefect server of choice for anyone with a system not already built around carefully shielded fancy cables and stuff. If you have a suite of cheap and cheerful PCs you are going to absolutely need a server that doesn’t need the system to be fully kitted out in top flight cable hazmat and a dac that’s built to be utterly immune to noise to just get your digital to sound really good. Still going for better digital components would then obviously take the Extreme further but it seems it’s baseline performance isn’t hanging on the rest of the things like switches and the build quality of the sota dacs.

Extreme seems to be a way to buy a turn key server solution that lets you just enjoy streaming and any file based music in a system that may not actually be the perfect digital environment and then seems to make everything else in the digital stream just less critical for musical performance.

Just I’m not sure anyone who buys into Extreme is likely to stay with anything else less than extreme for any length of time though.