Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[matthias]

I am astonished that hardcore audiophiles are suggesting that we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server. IMHO it ignores the essence of our subjective hobby and dangerously approaches the dogma of some audio forums known for their extreme objective views.

As far as I am aware of nobody here on this thread claims this.
The DAC is a very important component in a digital systems and improving the DAC will improve the SQ of all downstream components.
But not all audiophiles can spend or want to spend more than say 30k on the digital components in a system.
IMO, with the Extreme, a good USB cable and a 2,5k DAC like Yggdrasil you will get the highest SQ within this budget.

Matt

 

[dminches]

As far as I am aware of nobody here on this thread claims this.
The DAC is a very important component in a digital systems and improving the DAC will improve the SQ of all downstream components.
But not all audiophiles can spend or want to spend more than say 30k on the digital components in a system.
IMO, with the Extreme, a good USB cable and a 2,5k DAC like Yggdrasil you will get the highest SQ within this budget.

Matt

It seems to me that while you are saying that nobody is claiming that "we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server," your suggested system is exactly that.

 

[Rhapsody]

All VG opinions and options and the great part is no-one is wrong. It's all a personal decision, but it's great at this point in time there are SO many ways to go to get great sounding digital vs. just a few years ago.

 

[romaz]

I think this hype around the Extreme is unnecessary and in the long time misleading and detrimental to a proper debate of digital audio.

IMHO people are getting the wrong idea about the effect of the Extreme on DACs. Although the use of the Extreme improves considerably the performance of DACs and removes some of the differences between DACs due to poor server interface, the Extreme will not make any DAC sound like a top DAC. Although in a fast comparison it is more difficult to separate the DACs when using the Extreme, after sometime we get used to the Extreme and the differences become clear. I have now used the Extreme with the DCS Vivaldi, the Kondo KSL, the Metronome C2A and the DCS Elgar plus. All of them sound very decent in my system with the Extreme, but in fact have different sound signatures. If faced between the Vivaldi stack with my home built server or the Elgar plus with the Extreme I would pick the Vivaldi stack without much thought ... Sorry, Marc!

The Extreme is a technological achievement in audio, we must congratulate the Taiko Audio people on it for its excellent subjective sound quality, but it is not a system miracle.

Top digital audio is much more than the initial wow effect. It has all the finesses and features of top analog stereo - and no perfect audio server can put an end to our desire of evolution and perfecting our systems, tuning them to our preferences.

I am astonished that hardcore audiophiles are suggesting that we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server. IMHO it ignores the essence of our subjective hobby and dangerously approaches the dogma of some audio forums known for their extreme objective views.

I am very happy with Extreme contribution to my system and I feel privileged to own an Extreme. But I also feel that now I must tune my system to enhance its possibilities - just the same way I do when I get better analog sources. As always, all IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, I sketched this post a couple of days ago and only finished it today - in no way it is a direct answer to very recent posts.

You bring up some great points. While you may not be responding to some of my posts specifically, it's possible you or others may have been misled by some things that I posted and so perhaps it's good to clear the air. Sometimes, what is implied by the poster and inferred by the reader are different things.

First of all, as this is a thread about the Extreme, if people wish to extol what they perceive to be the virtues of the Extreme or about the importance of servers in general, this would be the place to do it. I wouldn't necessarily call it hype if what is being expressed is genuine. I'm sure there are plenty of DAC threads where the opposite views are being expressed and no one should be surprised by that.

Second, it's fair game to discuss what people like about the Extreme but also what they don't like and you're right, sometimes it takes time for the "wow effect" to settle before the negatives become clearer. For someone genuinely interested in the Extreme who is on the fence, I'm sure your balanced comments will be much appreciated. Emile has told me my Extreme is now currently in the burn-in phase and so I may be contributing some of my own criticisms at some point soon.

When I suggested that someone just jumping into digital should consider building around the server, obviously, this is an opinion and not some law of physics. Nor should this opinion be considered astonishing or dangerous just because you disagree. A digital front end is comprised of both a digital playback device (either a server or transport) and a digital-to-analog interpreter and neither can function in isolation and so it can be argued that both are equally important. As I posted, a DAC which is both a digital and an analog device has the greater capacity to imprint its signature on what you hear which is why DACs can command such large sums whereas a server, if it is doing its job properly, should remain as invisible as possible which is why some audiophiles struggle to understand why they need more than a NUC.

If this is indeed true, why would it make sense to suggest building around a server versus building around a DAC? In my case, I chose the more traditional route of building around a DAC and am not averse to this but personally, I think it's easier to build around a server and I'll explain. If I was just getting started with digital and was in the market for a top flight DAC, not knowing my tastes, of the 4 DACs that you listed, which of those DACs would you recommend to me? Having evaluated the Vivaldi stack in earnest, I found it wasn't for me. As a former TotalDac owner, I had some personal issues there also. DACs have such varying characters that I would never suggest to a person what DAC to buy without getting to know them first and even then, I don't think there are guarantees. Servers are easier and so if someone is looking for the best server they can buy, I can much more confidently make a suggestion and then have them take their time deciding on which DAC is best for them. I don't think finding the right DAC is so easy to do and takes much more time and so in this sense, it becomes easier to suggest building around a server..

Lastly, having built enough servers for myself and others, I have yet to encounter a DAC that failed to improve its stature when fronted by a better server. In this sense, a good server can make the DAC you have sound like a significantly upgraded DAC. Never did I say nor mean to imply that a $500 DAC will sound like a $50,000 DAC. If someone who buys an Extreme no longer feels the need to upgrade their DAC, that's entirely possible this could happen but the nature of most audiophiles is that they won't buy an Extreme and voluntarily leave performance on the table. Most audiophiles predictably will search for ways to get the most out of the Extreme which could mean not just upgrading the DAC but possibly any other perceived weak link in the chain.

 

[matthias]

It seems to me that while you are saying that nobody is claiming that "we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server," your suggested system is exactly that.

No, you can spend as much as you like on your system and most probably you will gain sonic benefits.
My claim is only about what i would do within a certain limited budget.
Please read or reread post #2161, this mirrors exactly my opinion.

Matt

 

[nuway]

Francisco, good points that counter some of the drift of this thread.

So, if you were starting from scratch with a $30k budget, you wouldn't go $25k Extreme and eg Yggy and decent Usb?

You would look at a pricier dac, in $20-25k bracket and a more modest server eg Innuos Zenith?

FWIW, the best streaming I've heard is €16k SGM2015 and €4k T&A Dac8. That's 80%/20% split. If Extreme is a step beyond SGM, maybe combining w said T&A would really work too.

I guess I'll see if any owners running Extreme pair it w cheaper dacs, and report on findings.

I am running an Extreme with two Dacs: MSB ref on Extreme USB 3.2 and T+A MP3100HV on Extreme 3.1 USB output. Dual Zone configuration in Roon. Although the MSB delivers great SQ the T+A comes closed when Roon sends 256 DSD up sampled to T+A. Hope this help!

 

[matthias]

I am running an Extreme with two Dacs: MSB ref on Extreme USB 3.2 and T+A MP3100HV on Extreme 3.1 USB output. Dual Zone configuration in Roon. Although the MSB delivers great SQ the T+A comes closed when Roon sends 256 DSD up sampled to T+A. Hope this help!

Sure thanks,
my question @Taiko Audio:

Emile,
do exist SQ differences between the five USB outputs of Extreme?
Thanks

Matt

 

[microstrip]

This is a good question and I think the answer is "it depends." Provided your digital master is comparable in quality to your vinyl pressing and that you aren't attached to your turntable for nostalgic reasons, then the answer could be "yes." I have generally looked at qualities such as warmth, bloom, or tonal saturation as being more the domain of analog components and that would include the room, speakers, amplifier, preamplifier, cables, and even the analog output stage of the DAC but not the server. You cannot add 2A3s or 300Bs to the output stage of a digital music server, for example, and so what I generally have expected from my servers is simply for it to keep no secrets and tell no lies -- to be as resolving and transparent to the source file as much as possible.

While neutrality, resolution, and transparency remain my main goals for a music server, I must admit there are times when I wish I could add some degree of embellishment for some of my less-than-stellar quality digital files and then remove those embellishments at will for my better recordings and it turns out with a modern-day music server like the Extreme, you can. Those that have been using Roon for some time know that it has integrated DSP capabilities. While one could always insert an analog EQ into their chain, modern-day digital EQs have greater transparency and precision and Emile has indicated that he has Roon's digital EQ sounding very good with the Extreme for those who desire it.

With Roon's parametric EQ, you can make adjustments by ear and here is a rough guide:

https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

To do it right, however, I would suggest you take measurements and if necessary, bring in help. For example, if you purchase the necessary measuring microphone and software from Acourate (based in Germany), for a nominal fee, Ulrich (aka "Uli") Brüggemann will happily remote into your Windows laptop and help you generate measurements of your equipment in your listening room and help you create profiles or "presets" that can be used by Roon. For instance, if you wished to replicate the midrange density of your turntable for certain recordings, you could take frequency measurements of your system with your turntable playing back a certain track. These frequency measurements can then be used as the basis for a preset that can be applied at will from within Roon to approximate the tonal character of your turntable. Of course, this can be tuned further to taste and multiple presets can be created and then turned off when full transparency is desired. This is not something that I do but I have a friend that swears by it and it has helped him wean off of his turntable. On a simpler level, if you boost 100Hz and 10kHz by about 10dB and save it as a preset, you now have a "loudness" button that you can use during low volume listening. This one, I use. You get the picture...

Good points, but focused on measurable changes the frequency domain. IMHO the main discussion on the Extreme is on the "small differences" in spite of being bit exact.
Again IMHO no equalization can reproduce these subjective differences.

But yes, in my system for some recordings I prefer the colorful sound of my Metronome Calyspso transport /C2A tubed DAC to any server, including the Extreme.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Francisco, why do you feel yr Metronome disc spinner sounds best w those recordings? My record collection is full of sonically challenging lps and cds, and streamed music often sounds the worst w these. Interesting that you say even Extreme comes up short w those albums in yr collection better served on cd.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, you're an ideal person to ask this Q, and I'd value as frank and open an answer as possible. You love yr vinyl, you have a top echelon rig. You have tape too? And now you've fallen hook line and sinker for Extreme. From what you've heard so far, w the promise of new dac to come, can you see yself switching listening duties l/t to Extreme primarily? Or are you like MikeL going to be v fussy and organised on recordings/masterings provenance dictating vinyl or streamed?

Your initial thrill, COULD it lead to dust gathering on the top of yr tt, and tumbleweed settling on yr phono?

Hi Marc

Yes I do like listening to my vinyl set up. Having said that I have to say once again that the Extreme has totally changed up my entire way I listen to music. It has become the first thing I listen to each day for ever longer lasting listening sessions. And here for me is the crux of the whole thing.....The SQ of the Extreme is so good that although I used to care whether a file was DSD256 or PCM 384 or everything in between to hear the best presentation of a song I find myself no longer looking at the LCD on my DAC to tell me if this is a DSD256 or a Redbook 44.1 as it simply to my ears does not matter. To me, everything sounds terrific whether it is redbook or DSD or hires files...so much so that it just doesn't matter to me. Simply put the Extreme no matter what format just sounds great. I've commented before and I will again that the SQ of the Extreme is better than one can ever imagine until they hear it in their system. I have also said that based on what I have found with the Extreme it was my feeling that the digital side of the system should be built around the Extreme rather than the system built around the DAC but that is just my $0.02

I continue to listen to vinyl and continue to love it but the ease of installation and use together with the superb sound quality of the Extreme has opened up music to me that I otherwise never knew about, such that I am likely 80% Extreme and 20% vinyl and tape. I love the Extreme and what it has done to my system.

 

[Blackmorec]

Respectfully, you have missed my point. I was responding to @spiritofmusic's desire to be able to replicate the midrange density of his turntable that he prefers should he buy an Extreme so that he could better enjoy some of the music he likes that were not necessarily recorded or mastered well. My friend had similar issues and he found digital equalization helpful. Who are we to suggest it's wrong if someone enjoys it. The point is the option is there with the Extreme and so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, I did miss that particular point. What you’re talking about is a genre of music where problems are similar and rather common. When its your favorite music that does warrant a special solution, I agree. You’re correct. Thanks for taking the time to explain

Just to be clear Romaz, I’m not responding as I do because I want to be awkward, I’m seriously interested in what’s the best and why and in what you’ve got to say, just I don’t accept everything without some questions or discussion. And I’ve usually got my own opinions and experiences, so I like to fit the new knowledge with that. That way I get an accurate picture of what’s going on and no or few contradictions. And I do enjoy the debate with people on here whose experience and opinions are worth listening to.

Happy and healthy New Year and enjoy your new Extreme when it arrives

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, are there any favourite albums you're gonna make the switch from vinyl to streaming? I don't mean modern DDD type stuff, or audiophile digital hi rez. I mean golden age stuff recorded and mastered purely in the analog domain that back in the 80s and 90s you would never have chosen to play the cd of? Are you seamlessly going to now move to listen to a lot of 60s to 80s material now via Extreme than yr tt?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes, I did miss that particular point. What you’re talking about is a genre of music where problems are similar and rather common. When its your favorite music that does warrant a special solution, I agree. You’re correct. Thanks for taking the time to explain

Just to be clear Romaz, I’m not responding as I do because I want to be awkward, I’m seriously interested in what’s the best and why and in what you’ve got to say, just I don’t accept everything without some questions or discussion. And I’ve usually got my own opinions and experiences, so I like to fit the new knowledge with that. That way I get an accurate picture of what’s going on and no or few contradictions. And I do enjoy the debate with people on here whose experience and opinions are worth listening to.

Happy and healthy New Year and enjoy your new Extreme when it arrives

Guys, I really do value all yr responses and analysis. The move to streaming for this particular consumer has set up some tricky to resolve dichotomies, and everyone's input is totally valued, at least by me.

If this was simply the dilemma of a better tt or cdp or amp or spkrs, it would be an argument of what you can afford v what impvts accrued.

If it was simply about whether to buy a cdp post 1983, it would purely be an argument as to when releases became cd only, or if you swung to preferring digital.

Streaming doesn't quite fit these decisions, it's a whole new delivery method, and suddenly multiple component decisions become evident.

It was as a result of interpreting MikeL's comment on Extreme being pretty much a gamechanger delivering info to the dac in a drastically more accurate way leading to the server taking greater prominence in the server/dac heirarchy that got me posing the Q of spending greater majority of budget on it being reasonable. The responses have been most interesting.

 

[Kingsrule]

So is a server comparable to a tt, tone arm, cartridge or phono preamp in delivering analogue sources?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think one take was that
Server w USB = tt & arm ie the resolving/delivery of info
Dac = cart & phono ie the flavour & tonal balance
Maybe: server = tt, USB cbl = arm.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, are there any favourite albums you're gonna make the switch from vinyl to streaming? I don't mean modern DDD type stuff, or audiophile digital hi rez. I mean golden age stuff recorded and mastered purely in the analog domain that back in the 80s and 90s you would never have chosen to play the cd of? Are you seamlessly going to now move to listen to a lot of 60s to 80s material now via Extreme than yr tt?

That’s my era of music Marc so the answer is yes

 

[matthias]

So is a server comparable to a tt, tone arm, cartridge or phono preamp in delivering analogue sources?

Turntable.......Server
Cartridge.......DAC

or

Turntable/tonearm.......Server
Cartridge/phonoamp.......DAC

Matt

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, that really is the greatest compliment one could ever pass to Extreme. That a died in the wool vinylphile who didn't switch wholesale to cd in the 80s and 90s, is sooo impressed w Extreme that at the point where he has as good vinyl playback as he could reasonably hope to get, is so enamoured by the new digital he may move as close to fully over to it as possible. Impressive.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Turntable.......Server
Cartridge.......DAC

or

Turntable/tonearm.......Server
Cartridge/phono preamp.......DAC

Matt

since the bits of data (analogous to a master file or tape) gets converted to dac readable data (vinyl mastering process) by the server, i view the server + data = pressing.

further.....since everyone's data is basically identical; the further analogy is that the server makes a difference like the pressing makes a difference.

two systems with exactly the same data and dac, will sound different with different servers, like two systems playing the same recording, with the same gear, but different pressings.

essentially we have moved on from data being significant. it's not changed in 20 years. dacs are now better. but the big change is servers have matured. they had a very long way to go from the dirty things they were.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, that really is the greatest compliment one could ever pass to Extreme. That a died in the wool vinylphile who didn't switch wholesale to cd in the 80s and 90s, is sooo impressed w Extreme that at the point where he has as good vinyl playback as he could reasonably hope to get, is so enamoured by the new digital he may move as close to fully over to it as possible. Impressive.

Marc

For me and my room and my listening habits, it was a true game changer