Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[CKKeung]

So it seems we have three options if we have 40k burning a hole;
1. Extreme plus 10k Dac plus 5K USB Cable
2. 5K server plus 30 K Dac plus 5K USB Cable
3. 5KServer plus 5K Dac plus 30K USB Cable

Howie,
No need to spend usd5k or more on an usb cable.
Get the Intona Ultimate which is usd2k and it's done!

 

[romaz]

If I really wanted an evening of Atlantic/Impulse recordings era John Coltrane, followed by Cream and then 70s Miles Davis, would I truly get as immersed off Extreme, than as a session listening to Extreme focusing on hi rez modern classical, jazz and eg DDD Nils Frahm or London Grammar?

This is a good question and I think the answer is "it depends." Provided your digital master is comparable in quality to your vinyl pressing and that you aren't attached to your turntable for nostalgic reasons, then the answer could be "yes." I have generally looked at qualities such as warmth, bloom, or tonal saturation as being more the domain of analog components and that would include the room, speakers, amplifier, preamplifier, cables, and even the analog output stage of the DAC but not the server. You cannot add 2A3s or 300Bs to the output stage of a digital music server, for example, and so what I generally have expected from my servers is simply for it to keep no secrets and tell no lies -- to be as resolving and transparent to the source file as much as possible.

While neutrality, resolution, and transparency remain my main goals for a music server, I must admit there are times when I wish I could add some degree of embellishment for some of my less-than-stellar quality digital files and then remove those embellishments at will for my better recordings and it turns out with a modern-day music server like the Extreme, you can. Those that have been using Roon for some time know that it has integrated DSP capabilities. While one could always insert an analog EQ into their chain, modern-day digital EQs have greater transparency and precision and Emile has indicated that he has Roon's digital EQ sounding very good with the Extreme for those who desire it.

With Roon's parametric EQ, you can make adjustments by ear and here is a rough guide:

https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

To do it right, however, I would suggest you take measurements and if necessary, bring in help. For example, if you purchase the necessary measuring microphone and software from Acourate (based in Germany), for a nominal fee, Ulrich (aka "Uli") Brüggemann will happily remote into your Windows laptop and help you generate measurements of your equipment in your listening room and help you create profiles or "presets" that can be used by Roon. For instance, if you wished to replicate the midrange density of your turntable for certain recordings, you could take frequency measurements of your system with your turntable playing back a certain track. These frequency measurements can then be used as the basis for a preset that can be applied at will from within Roon to approximate the tonal character of your turntable. Of course, this can be tuned further to taste and multiple presets can be created and then turned off when full transparency is desired. This is not something that I do but I have a friend that swears by it and it has helped him wean off of his turntable. On a simpler level, if you boost 100Hz and 10kHz by about 10dB and save it as a preset, you now have a "loudness" button that you can use during low volume listening. This one, I use. You get the picture...

 

[Blackmorec]

This is a good question and I think the answer is "it depends." Provided your digital master is comparable in quality to your vinyl pressing and that you aren't attached to your turntable for nostalgic reasons, then the answer could be "yes." I have generally looked at qualities such as warmth, bloom, or tonal saturation as being more the domain of analog components and that would include the room, speakers, amplifier, preamplifier, cables, and even the analog output stage of the DAC but not the server. You cannot add 2A3s or 300Bs to the output stage of a digital music server, for example, and so what I generally have expected from my servers is simply for it to keep no secrets and tell no lies -- to be as resolving and transparent to the source file as much as possible.

While neutrality, resolution, and transparency remain my main goals for a music server, I must admit there are times when I wish I could add some degree of embellishment for some of my less-than-stellar quality digital files and then remove those embellishments at will for my better recordings and it turns out with a modern-day music server like the Extreme, you can. Those that have been using Roon for some time know that it has integrated DSP capabilities. While one could always insert an analog EQ into their chain, modern-day digital EQs have greater transparency and precision and Emile has indicated that he has Roon's digital EQ sounding very good with the Extreme for those who desire it.

With Roon's parametric EQ, you can make adjustments by ear and here is a rough guide:

https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

To do it right, however, I would suggest you take measurements and if necessary, bring in help. For example, if you purchase the necessary measuring microphone and software from Acourate (based in Germany), for a nominal fee, Ulrich (aka "Uli") Brüggemann will happily remote into your Windows laptop and help you generate measurements of your equipment in your listening room and help you create profiles or "presets" that can be used by Roon. For instance, if you wished to replicate the midrange density of your turntable for certain recordings, you could take frequency measurements of your system with your turntable playing back a certain track. These frequency measurements can then be used as the basis for a preset that can be applied at will from within Roon to approximate the tonal character of your turntable. Of course, this can be tuned further to taste and multiple presets can be created and then turned off when full transparency is desired. This is not something that I do but I have a friend that swears by it and it has helped him wean off of his turntable. On a simpler level, if you boost 100Hz and 10kHz by about 10dB and save it as a preset, you now have a "loudness" button that you can use during low volume listening. This one, I use. You get the picture...

Hi Romaz,
Thoughtful post, as ever. However I would again be the ‘Devil’s Advocate’ and make the following observation. My ‘goal’ in listening to hi-fi is for the system to instantly grab my attention and immerse my entire mind in music. I want it to change my consciousness so I’m no longer aware of anything except the music. There is one major demand for achieving this; absolutely no ‘analytical listening’. Critically listening to the structural quality of the music is the antithesis of what I want. I don’t know about you, but whenever I make changes to my system I listen critically in order to hear what those changes did. Instead of the music talking to my inner being, and carrying me away on its wings, its being filtered through a conscious evaluation process and the overriding pleasure comes from the quality of the replay rather than from the actual substance and nature of the music. Its true that any anomalies to the sound act as an attraction grabber to the analytical brain, drawing its attention away from the music, while it tries to ‘identify’ what‘s amiss. Thus when i get my music to the point where I’m able to fully relax and let it carry me away, I don’t want to implement anything that involves changes, which drag me back into an analytical mode. At some point, if you’re constantly trying to improve the way your system sounds, you may very well miss the music. This is often why you enjoy live music more than recorded. What you want is ‘as good as necessary’. Now let’s see if I can take my own advice. I will as soon as my latest DC cable runs in. Ha Ha

 

[romaz]

Hi Romaz,
Thoughtful post, as ever. However I would again be the ‘Devil’s Advocate’ and make the following observation. My ‘goal’ in listening to hi-fi is for the system to instantly grab my attention and immerse my entire mind in music. I want it to change my consciousness so I’m no longer aware of anything except the music. There is one major demand for achieving this; absolutely no ‘analytical listening’. Critically listening to the structural quality of the music is the antithesis of what I want. I don’t know about you, but whenever I make changes to my system I listen critically in order to hear what those changes did. Instead of the music talking to my inner being, and carrying me away on its wings, its being filtered through a conscious evaluation process and the overriding pleasure comes from the quality of the replay rather than from the actual substance and nature of the music. Its true that any anomalies to the sound act as an attraction grabber to the analytical brain, drawing its attention away from the music, while it tries to ‘identify’ what‘s amiss. Thus when i get my music to the point where I’m able to fully relax and let it carry me away, I don’t want to implement anything that involves changes, which drag me back into an analytical mode. At some point, if you’re constantly trying to improve the way your system sounds, you may very well miss the music. This is often why you enjoy live music more than recorded. What you want is ‘as good as necessary’. Now let’s see if I can take my own advice. I will as soon as my latest DC cable runs in. Ha Ha

I agree with what you're saying but I think you've missed the point of my post. With excellent performances that have been excellently recorded, mixed, and mastered, there is certainly no need to do anything except sit back and be swept away by the music. My post was meant to address less than perfect recordings where it becomes difficult to find immersion and enjoyment. In these situations, it is difficult not to be critical or analytical about some frequency anomaly (i.e. recording is too bright, bass is muddied, midrange is recessed, etc.) because it is so glaring. Sometimes, in these cases, the lesser evil for the sake of achieving enjoyment might be to break bit-perfect playback and pursue some degree of equalization which can be implemented easily within Roon through presets. This is no different than you buying a new DC cable to fix what you believe is lacking in your system.

 

[Blackmorec]

I agree with what you're saying but I think you've missed the point of my post. With excellent performances that have been excellently recorded, there is certainly no need to do anything except sit back and be swept away by the music. My post was meant to address less than perfect recordings where it becomes difficult to find immersion and enjoyment. In these situations, it is difficult not to be critical or analytical about some frequency anomaly (i.e. recording is too bright, bass is muddied, midrange is recessed, etc.) because it is so glaring. Sometimes, in these cases, the lesser evil for the sake of achieving enjoyment might be to break bit-perfect playback and pursue some degree of equalization which can be implemented easily within Roon through presets. This is no different than you buying a new DC cable to fix what you believe is lacking in your system.

I do get exactly what you’re saying....if you want to enjoy poorer recordings there is a means via Roon to re-equalise their frequencies. I just think that the bad recordings are bad for a number of reasons related to mastering, too varied to fix with a few frequency adjustments. By the time I’ve gone to the trouble to fix the problem and analyze whether its fixed I just wonder if I should just accept that a few recordings aren’t great. I agree that some of the anomalies can be fixed (some can’t) but I think the ’fixing’ may be a greater ‘disturbance’ than the problem itself. For me, the biggest problem are mixes where instruments share exactly the same acoustic space, crowding each other, while the entire rest of the soundstage width and depth remains empty and silent. Such recordings sound like multiple musicians all standing in the same place. Such wasted opportunity. Conversely the ‘singer-songwriter who sings on one side of the stage whilst playing guitar on the other or pianos whose keyboards sound 12 feet long. Fortunately these are fairly rare.
With respect, I would say there‘s a big difference between the cable and some Roon presets. The cable treats the entire system and all recordings and once done, there is no selection (when to use it, when not) and therefore no analytical listening required.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So with Extreme up at the current top who will consider putting $30k+ into a server but still just spend a few $k on a dac? Anyone who can afford a $25k server and are into digital already will likely already have a dac and cables etc already over $20k to start with.

So who are these guys without a dac at all who would invest over $35k as a starting point into a streaming setup with only a minimal investment in a dac... I’d say possibly it’d be analog only guys who already have invested in a top flight turntable setup and will and can spend up at the top end but may have not felt till now that a digital system could check enough of their right musical buttons to make them plunge into the hazards and considerable effort of a file based computer audio.

Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of the Extreme is that it is so crazily judiciously designed and built that it seems to factor out a lot of the fundamental issues in putting together a high quality digital setup ie primarily creating a sufficiently low noise environment with all the right infrastructure to make it a super low noise RFI proof system.

Managing RFI is one of the great challenges for putting together a digital setup to sound at its musical best.

If your digital setup isn’t built to be very RFI immune it will suffer all the surrounding noise of the rest of the system. Tonal greyness and harshness is often an outcome.

For those of us who’ve already built digital systems that are inherently musical they already have all the right infrastructure in the system to make digital work, ie all them fancy shielded signal and power cables and power supplies, router switches etc. As well digital tends to be very responsive to all manner of foo resonance control to boot and even the sway of power conditioning and the like.

I’m just going to suggest that what makes DDK and Peter’s completely workable inexpensive or low key tweak approach possible is that they aren’t primarily setting up for digital environments and these strategies work even better again if they are also primarily analogue based horn and SET systems. Analogue based horn and SET can play very happily and beautifully naturally in relatively unshielded cable environments if the components and analogue source are all top flight.

My time with the Animas and 300B amps taught me that with an analogue front end the pcs and signal cables were absolutely just less critical but then when the Animas and 300Bs were then being used for a digital based system then the cables once again came much more into play.

If in the case of the Extreme the inherent design of that server factors out a lot of the more critical downstream issues for the rest of the digital components of sounding good then it will still perform in an anything less than perfect digital environment.

So then the Extreme would indeed be the prefect server of choice for anyone with a system not already built around carefully shielded fancy cables and stuff. If you have a suite of cheap and cheerful PCs you are going to absolutely need a server that doesn’t need the system to be fully kitted out in top flight cable hazmat and a dac that’s built to be utterly immune to noise to just get your digital to sound really good. Still going for better digital components would then obviously take the Extreme further but it seems it’s baseline performance isn’t hanging on the rest of the things like switches and the build quality of the sota dacs.

Extreme seems to be a way to buy a turn key server solution that lets you just enjoy streaming and any file based music in a system that may not actually be the perfect digital environment and then seems to make everything else in the digital stream just less critical for musical performance.

Just I’m not sure anyone who buys into Extreme is likely to stay with anything else less than extreme for any length of time though.

Tao, this is Extreme's biggest selling point. It is a totally realised, overly bulletproofed, and sufficiently futureproofed design, that it really sells itself as the one box you can buy in digital audio that needs zero worry and provides maximum confidence.

I've heard a fair number of server based solutions, and only Blue58's SGM properly immerses me in the music (my specific concerns of Tidal provenance aside). Indeed I've heard some pretty pricey examples including custom designs, ones using fancy computer codes, multiple switches etc, and they've all left me cold. Grey, grainy, overanalytical.

Fascinatingly, I've heard some interesting server v cd transport demos using the same dac, and the server lost, not close at all.

And then we get onto my other bete noire w streaming, this move to multiple boxes, thus multiple LPSs, the rat's nest of cables, EMI and RF issues, switches, and Extreme's extreme one box solution really really appeals.

Emile is telling me SGM2015 is great but Extreme is beyond a step up. And w my only 100% positive experience being SGM at Blue58...

So, for this analog minded audiophile, who has grown to totally love digital via my Eera cdp, looks at streaming with a mix of anxiety and indecision, but awareness it could change my musical journey in fascinating ways, I am maybe just the type of consumer who will spend server/dac 80%/20%, knowing that I've got the equivalent of an uber engineered tt/arm combination in Extreme, of which I can play w cart/phono choices over time ie the dac.

I'm most convinced that going for the Extreme is the option if I want all the heavy lifting to be done effortlessly on day one. Esp since I know there are hugely commendable dacs at $5k price level.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Howie,
No need to spend usd5k or more on an usb cable.
Get the Intona Ultimate which is usd2k and it's done!

Howie, the Usb cbl is least of my worries. Sablon order on day one.

 

[romaz]

I do get exactly what you’re saying....if you want to enjoy poorer recordings there is a means via Roon to re-equalise their frequencies. I just think that the bad recordings are bad for a number of reasons related to mastering, too varied to fix with a few frequency adjustments. By the time I’ve gone to the trouble to fix the problem and analyze whether its fixed I just wonder if I should just accept that a few recordings aren’t great. I agree that some of the anomalies can be fixed (some can’t) but I think the ’fixing’ may be greater ‘disturbance’ than the problem itself. For me, the biggest problem are mixes where instruments share exactly the same acoustic space, crowding each other, while the entire rest of the soundstage remains empty and silent. Such wasted opportunity. Conversely the ‘singer-songwriter who sings on one side of the stage whilst playing guitar on the other or pianos whose keyboards sound 12 feet long. Fortunately these are fairly rare.

Respectfully, you have missed my point. I was responding to @spiritofmusic's desire to be able to replicate the midrange density of his turntable that he prefers should he buy an Extreme so that he could better enjoy some of the music he likes that were not necessarily recorded or mastered well. My friend had similar issues and he found digital equalization helpful. Who are we to suggest it's wrong if someone enjoys it. The point is the option is there with the Extreme and so I'll leave it at that.

 

[spiritofmusic]

This is a good question and I think the answer is "it depends." Provided your digital master is comparable in quality to your vinyl pressing and that you aren't attached to your turntable for nostalgic reasons, then the answer could be "yes." I have generally looked at qualities such as warmth, bloom, or tonal saturation as being more the domain of analog components and that would include the room, speakers, amplifier, preamplifier, cables, and even the analog output stage of the DAC but not the server. You cannot add 2A3s or 300Bs to the output stage of a digital music server, for example, and so what I generally have expected from my servers is simply for it to keep no secrets and tell no lies -- to be as resolving and transparent to the source file as much as possible.

While neutrality, resolution, and transparency remain my main goals for a music server, I must admit there are times when I wish I could add some degree of embellishment for some of my less-than-stellar quality digital files and then remove those embellishments at will for my better recordings and it turns out with a modern-day music server like the Extreme, you can. Those that have been using Roon for some time know that it has integrated DSP capabilities. While one could always insert an analog EQ into their chain, modern-day digital EQs have greater transparency and precision and Emile has indicated that he has Roon's digital EQ sounding very good with the Extreme for those who desire it.

With Roon's parametric EQ, you can make adjustments by ear and here is a rough guide:

https://www.cheatography.com/fredv/cheat-sheets/eq-tips/

To do it right, however, I would suggest you take measurements and if necessary, bring in help. For example, if you purchase the necessary measuring microphone and software from Acourate (based in Germany), for a nominal fee, Ulrich (aka "Uli") Brüggemann will happily remote into your Windows laptop and help you generate measurements of your equipment in your listening room and help you create profiles or "presets" that can be used by Roon. For instance, if you wished to replicate the midrange density of your turntable for certain recordings, you could take frequency measurements of your system with your turntable playing back a certain track. These frequency measurements can then be used as the basis for a preset that can be applied at will from within Roon to approximate the tonal character of your turntable. Of course, this can be tuned further to taste and multiple presets can be created and then turned off when full transparency is desired. This is not something that I do but I have a friend that swears by it and it has helped him wean off of his turntable. On a simpler level, if you boost 100Hz and 10kHz by about 10dB and save it as a preset, you now have a "loudness" button that you can use during low volume listening. This one, I use. You get the picture...

Romaz, thanks for addressing my point. I know it can look like nitpicking to make such observations re a hugely positive product like Extreme, but for me issues on provenance, master quality re streaming v cd or even vinyl, are the only reasons that I'd be wary to break the bank on Extreme. Hence my Q on how you uber streamer guys make allowances for great sounding DDD mastered new music and AAD mastered golden age music that can be way more variable. And whether Extreme is more a hindrance here, being extremely resolving. Romaz, you kinda answered my Q.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, you're an ideal person to ask this Q, and I'd value as frank and open an answer as possible. You love yr vinyl, you have a top echelon rig. You have tape too? And now you've fallen hook line and sinker for Extreme. From what you've heard so far, w the promise of new dac to come, can you see yself switching listening duties l/t to Extreme primarily? Or are you like MikeL going to be v fussy and organised on recordings/masterings provenance dictating vinyl or streamed?

Your initial thrill, COULD it lead to dust gathering on the top of yr tt, and tumbleweed settling on yr phono?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Tao, this is Extreme's biggest selling point. It is a totally realised, overly bulletproofed, and sufficiently futureproofed design, that it really sells itself as the one box you can buy in digital audio that needs zero worry and provides maximum confidence.

I've heard a fair number of server based solutions, and only Blue58's SGM properly immerses me in the music (my specific concerns of Tidal provenance aside). Indeed I've heard some pretty pricey examples including custom designs, ones using fancy computer codes, multiple switches etc, and they've all left me cold. Grey, grainy, overanalytical.

Fascinatingly, I've heard some interesting server v cd transport demos using the same dac, and the server lost, not close at all.

And then we get onto my other bete noire w streaming, this move to multiple boxes, thus multiple LPSs, the rat's nest of cables, EMI and RF issues, switches, and Extreme's extreme one box solution really really appeals.

Emile is telling me SGM2015 is great but Extreme is beyond a step up. And w my only 100% positive experience being SGM at Blue58...

So, for this analog minded audiophile, who has grown to totally love digital via my Eera cdp, looks at streaming with a mix of anxiety and indecision, but awareness it could change my musical journey in fascinating ways, I am maybe just the type of consumer who will spend server/dac 80%/20%, knowing that I've got the equivalent of an uber engineered tt/arm combination in Extreme, of which I can play w cart/phono choices over time ie the dac.

I'm most convinced that going for the Extreme is the option if I want all the heavy lifting to be done effortlessly on day one. Esp since I know there are hugely commendable dacs at $5k price level.

It’s a great thing Marc, and exactly what I’d buy if I had the budget. If Ra will let you go there I’d go for it!

Streaming without sonic regret is the ultimate release of all the old audiophile OCD shackles... music is always the cure.

PS without the budget to go Extreme I’m completely happy with the Antipodes Sotm combo instead. I’ve got it optimised and have no regrets. The music is everything I’d hope for and more. The gear is wonderful but better streaming is the big win. The challenge is to just move forward and to not now find a reason to not. Every day is a chance to get off the sonic treadmill and back to just focussing on exploring the greater realm of music. That is the ultimate promise of it all.

 

[microstrip]

I think this hype around the Extreme is unnecessary and in the long time misleading and detrimental to a proper debate of digital audio.

IMHO people are getting the wrong idea about the effect of the Extreme on DACs. Although the use of the Extreme improves considerably the performance of DACs and removes some of the differences between DACs due to poor server interface, the Extreme will not make any DAC sound like a top DAC. Although in a fast comparison it is more difficult to separate the DACs when using the Extreme, after sometime we get used to the Extreme and the differences become clear. I have now used the Extreme with the DCS Vivaldi, the Kondo KSL, the Metronome C2A and the DCS Elgar plus. All of them sound very decent in my system with the Extreme, but in fact have different sound signatures. If faced between the Vivaldi stack with my home built server or the Elgar plus with the Extreme I would pick the Vivaldi stack without much thought ... Sorry, Marc!

The Extreme is a technological achievement in audio, we must congratulate the Taiko Audio people on it for its excellent subjective sound quality, but it is not a system miracle.

Top digital audio is much more than the initial wow effect. It has all the finesses and features of top analog stereo - and no perfect audio server can put an end to our desire of evolution and perfecting our systems, tuning them to our preferences.

I am astonished that hardcore audiophiles are suggesting that we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server. IMHO it ignores the essence of our subjective hobby and dangerously approaches the dogma of some audio forums known for their extreme objective views.

I am very happy with Extreme contribution to my system and I feel privileged to own an Extreme. But I also feel that now I must tune my system to enhance its possibilities - just the same way I do when I get better analog sources. As always, all IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, I sketched this post a couple of days ago and only finished it today - in no way it is a direct answer to very recent posts.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Graham, the fact I've participated in this thread so much is proof positive I'm v interested.

My likely journey would be this entry level Extreme (which can be taken to full Extreme spec at a later date) and a musically communicative vfm dac.

One thing is apparent from this thread, Extreme would hit the ground running and be the anxiety free option for a consumer like me who is wary of the vast majority of servers I've heard, and cannot contemplate the Lego/wires overload of the multiple components approach to this sector.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think this hype around the Extreme is unnecessary and in the long time misleading and detrimental to a proper debate of digital audio.

IMHO people are getting the wrong idea about the effect of the Extreme on DACs. Although the use of the Extreme improves considerably the performance of DACs and removes some of the differences between DACs due to poor server interface, the Extreme will not make any DAC sound like a top DAC. Although in a fast comparison it is more difficult to separate the DACs when using the Extreme, after sometime we get used to the Extreme and the differences become clear. I have now used the Extreme with the DCS Vivaldi, the Kondo KSL, the Metronome C2A and the DCS Elgar plus. All of them sound very decent in my system with the Extreme, but in fact have different sound signatures. If faced between the Vivaldi stack with my home built server or the Elgar plus with the Extreme I would pick the Vivaldi stack without much thought ... Sorry, Marc!

The Extreme is a technological achievement in audio, we must congratulate the Taiko Audio people on it for its excellent subjective sound quality, but it is not a system miracle.

Top digital audio is much more than the initial wow effect. It has all the finesses and features of top analog stereo - and no perfect audio server can put an end to our desire of evolution and perfecting our systems, tuning them to our preferences.

I am astonished that hardcore audiophiles are suggesting that we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server. IMHO it ignores the essence of our subjective hobby and dangerously approaches the dogma of some audio forums known for their extreme objective views.

I am very happy with Extreme contribution to my system and I feel privileged to own an Extreme. But I also feel that now I must tune my system to enhance its possibilities - just the same way I do when I get better analog sources. As always, all IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, I sketched this post a couple of days ago and only finished it today - in no way it is a direct answer to very recent posts.

Francisco, good points that counter some of the drift of this thread.

So, if you were starting from scratch with a $30k budget, you wouldn't go $25k Extreme and eg Yggy and decent Usb?

You would look at a pricier dac, in $20-25k bracket and a more modest server eg Innuos Zenith?

FWIW, the best streaming I've heard is €16k SGM2015 and €4k T&A Dac8. That's 80%/20% split. If Extreme is a step beyond SGM, maybe combining w said T&A would really work too.

I guess I'll see if any owners running Extreme pair it w cheaper dacs, and report on findings.

 

[jespera]

Havent read all 110 pages of this thread, but is the general opinion that the extreme is as good (natural sounding) a transport as an old skool cd player (one that isnt based on cd rom drive and reclocking) ?

To these ears the general difference between server and cd player is a bit like the general difference between remaster and original.

IMUHMO (In-my-usual-humble-minority-opinion)

Jesper

.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jesper, whenever I introduce reflections upon server v cd transport, the sighs and eyes rolling begin. Good luck ploughing this furrow.

 

[Al M.]

So, if you were starting from scratch with a $30k budget, you wouldn't go $25k Extreme and eg Yggy and decent Usb?

You would look at a pricier dac, in $20-25k bracket and a more modest server eg Innuos Zenith?
o

Once more, Marc, you get hung up on the price of the Yggy, and not on its performance, which you do not know. I do, and its performance is quite spectacular in absolute terms, even though not up to the level of SOTA digital. But there we talk about stratospheric price differences.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Al, well not all of us are blessed w the ability to go Extreme and cost no object dac like Select 2. If one has a more real world limit like $20-30k, then there are some real decisions to be made. So, I have no opinion on Yggy not having heard it. But I have read reviews of dacs in it's price range and a little bit more, that say the performance vista to dacs 4x the price is a lot closer than you might imagine. However the impression I'm getting is that Extreme is a significant tech and subjective SQ jump over anything around it. And thus the concept of ploughing most funds into the server maybe makes sense for the first time.

Hey, until I do such a trial, or hear of user experiences of Extreme w sub $5-10k dac, this is sheer speculation. And I really don't want to take this thread any further in a direction most Extreme watchers are not at all interested in.

 

[nonesup]

I think this hype around the Extreme is unnecessary and in the long time misleading and detrimental to a proper debate of digital audio.

IMHO people are getting the wrong idea about the effect of the Extreme on DACs. Although the use of the Extreme improves considerably the performance of DACs and removes some of the differences between DACs due to poor server interface, the Extreme will not make any DAC sound like a top DAC. Although in a fast comparison it is more difficult to separate the DACs when using the Extreme, after sometime we get used to the Extreme and the differences become clear. I have now used the Extreme with the DCS Vivaldi, the Kondo KSL, the Metronome C2A and the DCS Elgar plus. All of them sound very decent in my system with the Extreme, but in fact have different sound signatures. If faced between the Vivaldi stack with my home built server or the Elgar plus with the Extreme I would pick the Vivaldi stack without much thought ... Sorry, Marc!

The Extreme is a technological achievement in audio, we must congratulate the Taiko Audio people on it for its excellent subjective sound quality, but it is not a system miracle.

Top digital audio is much more than the initial wow effect. It has all the finesses and features of top analog stereo - and no perfect audio server can put an end to our desire of evolution and perfecting our systems, tuning them to our preferences.

I am astonished that hardcore audiophiles are suggesting that we should put a limit on our expense in DACs or built a system around a server. IMHO it ignores the essence of our subjective hobby and dangerously approaches the dogma of some audio forums known for their extreme objective views.

I am very happy with Extreme contribution to my system and I feel privileged to own an Extreme. But I also feel that now I must tune my system to enhance its possibilities - just the same way I do when I get better analog sources. As always, all IMHO, YMMV.

BTW, I sketched this post a couple of days ago and only finished it today - in no way it is a direct answer to very recent posts.

I was waiting for some Extreme owner to finally say what is common sense.

 

[dminches]

Francisco, good points that counter some of the drift of this thread.

So, if you were starting from scratch with a $30k budget, you wouldn't go $25k Extreme and eg Yggy and decent Usb?

You would look at a pricier dac, in $20-25k bracket and a more modest server eg Innuos Zenith?

FWIW, the best streaming I've heard is €16k SGM2015 and €4k T&A Dac8. That's 80%/20% split. If Extreme is a step beyond SGM, maybe combining w said T&A would really work too.

I guess I'll see if any owners running Extreme pair it w cheaper dacs, and report on findings.

I am not Francisco but I will chime in, if I may. I have been following this entire discussion.

Here's how I see it. If you were going to buy an analog (LP) system and had $30k to spend would you spend over 80% on one component (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono pre, cables)? I wouldn't. I would try to find the best value in each or most of those categories and spread out the funds. I may spend more on the turntable than the other components but I wouldn't spend $25k on it.

Like Francisco said, one component isn't going to make the decisions on the rest of the components irrelevant. It all matters (to different degrees).

I have no doubt that the Extreme is among the best or even the best. But, unless I was on an path which would include upgrades in the immediate future I would likely not get "the best" of any one component.