Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Zeotrope]

Decided to drill out my original bracket and see how it works. Will update all on how it works…

Unfortunately, it only stayed connected for about 45min.
What is interesting is that the temperature at the top center of the Extreme case is only 31C/88F, which is below what another user sees (95F), and he has had no issues with connectivity with the new network card (without holes).
I will now set a USB fan to blow air into the holes in the bracket and see if this helps…

 

[MarcelNL]

the problem is not so much the temp at the casing but at the chip itself, a little bit of power produces quite a temperature increase on a small surface area. Most NIC chips and NIC cards are designed to operate in a server room with massive forced AC air cooling. Just a little bit of air flow helps a lot, that USB fan should work (I have my fan on a separate linear PSU )

 

[Zeotrope]

the problem is not so much the temp at the casing but at the chip itself, a little bit of power produces quite a temperature increase on a small surface area. Most NIC chips and NIC cards are designed to operate in a server room with massive forced AC air cooling. Just a little bit of air flow helps a lot, that USB fan should work (I have my fan on a separate linear PSU )

I see, thanks. But why do some users have no issue?
Have started the fans. Do you think the Extreme will need a restart or should it connect again automatically once/if the temp drops sufficiently?

 

[oldmustang]

I see, thanks. But why do some users have no issue?
Have started the fans. Do you think the Extreme will need a restart or should it connect again automatically once/if the temp drops sufficiently?

Once it goes into protection (and disconnects) it will need a restart. Rebooting from the front switch (without power cycling the back switch) will do it.

Steve Z

 

[Nils]

Has anyone grounded their switch yet?

That should bring another nice uptick in sound quality.

Me too - some further lowering of system's noise floor -> more details

 

[MarcelNL]

I see, thanks. But why do some users have no issue?
Have started the fans. Do you think the Extreme will need a restart or should it connect again automatically once/if the temp drops sufficiently?

I have no clue why some user have no issue, there may be differences in NIC chip power draw, ambient temp, air flow, network load, etc etc...
Also not sure if the Extreme needs a reboot to reconnect the network, my server does require it once the NIC card has cooled down.

 

[Zeotrope]

Once it goes into protection (and disconnects) it will need a restart. Rebooting from the front switch (without power cycling the back switch) will do it.

Steve Z

Ok thanks. Restarted with fans at rear. Works.

 

[Nils]

Running Extreme top-less works perfect in my room, streaming for 3,5 hours now -> simple work-around while waiting for NIC with upgraded firmware.

 

[MarcelNL]

That does lead to an interesting question: if you control playback some other way (eg USB connected iPad) would it maximize SQ for local file playback? That is, shut down all network connections altogether.

try shutting down the web page/app on the ipad, on my system it makes a difference. Shutting down the network requires a restart but likely has more impact (I never tried as I hate restarting my system, it's on 24/7)

 

[Zeotrope]

Good job -- I don't see any bandages or blood!

Steve Z

Ha! Indeed, and 10 fingers accounted for.
I used the two wood blocks that the new bracket ships with as a holder/jig.
I noticed the HD brackets have vent holes so maybe it’s a good idea to add holes to the network card as well?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Encouraging. Are you going to try for a setpoint of 80C (176F) or so? At 60C (140F) there might still be temperature protection issues for folks in hotter climates or who, like myself, only utilize A/C on the hottest of days.

Steve Z

85C.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Decided to drill out my original bracket and see how it works. Will update all on how it works…

That’s not enough.

 

[CKKeung]

85C.

Hi Emile,
The indoor temp in SE Asia such as Hong Kong can be more than 35 degrees Celius in summer.

If you are planning remedies/adjustment for the NIC, would you please simulate the following scenario :
An Extreme with full internal music storage, placed inside a rack and the Hong Kong owner goes to work so the indoor air-conditioning is turned off.

Many thanks!

 

[QuantumWave]

Hi Emile,
The indoor temp in SE Asia such as Hong Kong can be more than 35 degrees Celius in summer.

If you are planning remedies/adjustment for the NIC, would you please simulate the following scenario :
An Extreme with full internal music storage, placed inside a rack and the Hong Kong owner goes to work so the indoor air-conditioning is turned off.

Many thanks!

IIRC 85C isn’t too far from the CPU threshold so if that point is reached the CPU might start throttling or the MB rebooting anyway?

 

[Zeotrope]

Emile, is it possible that the Network card (and Switch) are reducing outgoing noise to other devices on the network? I could swear that since installing the new Network card my Apple TV “X” is streaming with more audio clarity. It’s connected to the same Eero 6E satellite that’s connected to the Switch.

 

[rando]

What could go wrong?

It does make for a shocking depiction of depths to which cooling can go in relation to slim band of naturally occurring ambient temps.

The reason for failure in these cards has a high probability of being related to unspectacular core component quality the larger electronics world is enduring. It would certainly account for such highly varied behaviors. Modern construction techniques are quite provably robust in terms of environmental (domestic home in Nordic Winter or HK Summer) impact.

 

[Taiko Audio]

It does make for a shocking depiction of depths to which cooling can go in relation to slim band of naturally occurring ambient temps.

The reason for failure in these cards has a high probability of being related to unspectacular core component quality the larger electronics world is enduring. It would certainly account for such highly varied behaviors. Modern construction techniques are quite provably robust in terms of environmental (domestic home in Nordic Winter or HK Summer) impact.

On average I'd say component quality has suffered from the supply chain shortages, we do absolutely see increased failure rates, presumably manufacturers have lowered QC to increase output. However we have tested a large batch of cards and their behaviour is identical. They shutdown before they should. We cannot rule out the possibility that adjustments have been made in firmware to account for a lower average chip quality, as in lower the thermal protection threshold, but we don't know this to be true either.

We are currently exploring multiple routes to attain the desired result. As an example we could disable fiber support, due to the additional heat generated by a fiber SFP module a 85C rated controller is downrated to 70C. However I'd prefer to retain the option to use fiber, even though it's currently the "worst sounding" option, simply because of power consumption. To clarify this, the new switch only uses 1.3 watts which includes the power wasted in the voltage regulators, this is a very low figure and a big part of it's performance, 2 SFP fiber modules can easily triple or even quadruple the switch power consumption and multiply noise.

We are also experimenting with heatsinks, interestingly one of the experiments has a surprising large effect on sound quality, I'm currently unsure if it's because of lowered heat or some kind of vibration control effect, but at least there's might be something positive to be gained from this endeavour.

 

[Taiko Audio]

General update on the remaining unshipped orders:

We have decided to ship out the remaining order without the network card, we'll include an additional RJ45 SFP module to compensate for the longer wait so you have the option to use it either with the old SFP card or as a regular RJ45 in - RJ45 out switch. The network cards will follow once we're satisfied with their performance, hopefully in a few days.

 

[Rhapsody]

What Emile/Taiko are doing in a week or two would take I would say the vast majority of manufacturers MONTHS to react, figure out the issues and come up with any type of solution.

As always BRAVO to Emile and team!

 

[nonesup]

General update on the remaining unshipped orders:

We have decided to ship out the remaining order without the network card, we'll include an additional RJ45 SFP module to compensate for the longer wait so you have the option to use it either with the old SFP card or as a regular RJ45 in - RJ45 out switch. The network cards will follow once we're satisfied with their performance, hopefully in a few days.

I tried to put an RJ45 module on the old card and on the new one, in both cases the module "bumps" against the wide pillars and cannot be inserted all the way.